Iraq has been Liberated - UCD ProLibSoc

by gingerman Fri Apr 11, 2003 15:28

lets add george w. to the list of FAILED dictators. get him out!

by Caspian Fri Apr 11, 2003 00:38

Agh, Janey Mac. I'm new to this forum. Don't tell me everybody else here is a snotty nosed student with a ring through their eyebrow!!! Are there any adults contributing here? Own up. I'm 54.
I'm only half serious so don't take too much offence, boys and girls!! Or should that be offense? Never did go to uni!!!!!

by member of UCD SU Thu Apr 10, 2003 18:57

John Harvey is right to say that it's good to see sadam gone. The BIG difference I'd have with Mr. Harvey is his praise of the United States.

He also seems to attack Lenin for being a dictator. Lenin was far from a dictator, he was in a leading role in a popular revolution that overthrew the hated capitalist class in Russia. All that dictator stuff is coming from Stalin's propaganda to legitimise his own dictatorship.

John Harvey and that red headed freak from LawSoc should just grow up. They are really wasting their time- exams are 2 weeks away! I hope they fail!

At next SU Council meeting a asked a Class Rep to move a motion of no confidence in John Harvey as Chair of Council for his antics.

by Clodagh Thu Apr 10, 2003 16:55

I think I would be out celebrating too, when the US stopped bombing my district. Celebrations are shortlived though, Iraqi people can't live on air and love of US troops alone, thanks to the indiscriminate bombing war mania, Iraqi people have no water, no electricity and no homes. So dig deep into your pocket KIND CARING CAPITATLISTS because Iraqi people need their water, electricity systems and homes rebuilt.

by Albo Thu Apr 10, 2003 13:25

"The Americians were more afraid of the global spread of the one thing thats killed most people in history, socialism, than of a few Arabs getting killed."

Wha?
I hope you're not counting Stalin's purges or Hitler's holocaust as examples of socialism killing people.

Why do the pro-war people never listen to the anti-war people? They just say their usual, "Well war is better than Saddam being in power" and think that's all there is to it. Then they refuse to listen to anything further said. It's not a black and white world. Open your mind.

by Rob . . . Thu Apr 10, 2003 13:11

Power stucture in iraq after war will not simply be placed down like a big billowing warm blanket covering the millions who inhabit baghdad. Think about it for a minute . . . The pentagon have been planning iraq rule and system redefinition for a while now, in a very detailed way. They have not done this without consultation of those most appropriate or in the right postions to accept the pressure of this reform, what ever form that takes. Add these widely known facts to some others - (like the snide slogan being heard throughout the halls of the pentagon, "UN role no UN rule", and the madia war being fought to justify the war etc. - then return to these images of people in jubulant exhileration at the prospect of iminent freedom. Now do the sums. How many millions in habitation to how many millions in jubulation, how many in jubulation to haw many in new governments "democratisation", how many images to public justification. Iraqi people are going to be involved in Americas rule, they have to be for public perception, the Americans and Iraqis know this. They also know they cannot use any existing politicians, diplomats or baath party members due to the scrutiny of this war from a variety of angles. The lesser known/unknown people who will take the reigns cannot afford to buy their way to rule in the new American system (the American system being based on money), but the American politicians' money comes from public perception, often indirectly through the corporate sector, but none-the-less public perception can make a formiddable second best in making up a price where money is lacking. Now take those pictures and watch them closely, how many of the organising figure of these "free speech welcoming rallies" will be sitting on seats f power in the near future, and how many of the crowd will be party members . . .

by bjg Thu Apr 10, 2003 12:54

... writes entirely from the "Western" (= rich powerful westerners) viewpoint, but some folk object to having Haliburton and its goons interfering at all. "Time": the original interference was wrong and the current interference is wrong. Why can't Megacorp just keep its nose out of other people's affairs?

bjg

by lex Thu Apr 10, 2003 12:09

some people got killed by accident? boy, are you one naive bugger.

More people got killed by socialism than anything? you are going to have to prove that one deary. Wtih a whole host of statistics--infant mortaility, life expectancy and so. Head to head--worid capitalism vs. socialism--and not with the throughly discredited "Black Book of Communism".

Maybe some of the folk you are counting just died by accident.

by bjg Thu Apr 10, 2003 12:05

... "to liberate" meant "to steal".

Nice to know that the Empire has reverted to this usage.

bjg

by ipsi phi Thu Apr 10, 2003 11:03

"the pantheon of failed brutal dictators"

panthoen properly refers to a gods, goddesses and semi-divinities in a religious system.
thus we make reference to the Greek Pantheon being similar to the Etruscan/Latin/Roman Pantheon.
Pantheon being a greek word
etymology Pan+theos

now, dear UCD student, there is no belief system that placed Lenin, Hitler, Saddam, Stalin, and Ceausescu together.

Are there obscure believers in Bellfieid with shrines to "failed, brutal dictators"?

what is a failed dictator?
one who didn't dictate?
all dictators are brutal.
on a fair scale of marking UCD boy I'd give you 2/10.
try again.
grow some more brain cells -you may be able to borrow a petrie dish from the science faculty.

by Khalid Thu Apr 10, 2003 10:49

History is littered with examples of people welcoming troops then to turn on them fairly quickly. Remember that the British troops were welcomed into Derry with cups of tea etc.

Anyway if you look at the scenes from Iraq, a vast majority are not welcoming the Americans, they are celebrating the end of Saddam's rule and the end of the war. There are not many people going around with stars and stripes.

by Ruairi Thu Apr 10, 2003 10:34

I would love to hear how these 'pro-lib' types actually define liberation. Is it liberation for them or for us! Wow....the American and British economies, according to Gordon Brown, have now been 'liberated' and will grow outpace the other G7 rogues... I wonder why!

by Damien Thu Apr 10, 2003 10:34

Tell that to Germany or Japan, both countries liberated by 'imperialism'. And quite frankly I don't think the cheering people of Baghdad give a flying fuck about the ever-valient Palestinians, who only a week ago were having pro Saddam protests.

by Tallyrand Thu Apr 10, 2003 10:33

"Max Dempsey" is really John Harvey of UCD YFG. He and together with the rest of YFG and some from UCD FF established the Pro Liberation Society. Harvey did this in a useless attempt to 'get back' at the left for him losing to a member of the Socialist Party in the recent SU elections. The fact is that the left don't give a fuck about this society and at best is only a bit irritating for them. Harvey is a very bitter and twisted individual especially since the elections It is even rumoured that Harvey, while working as a polling clerk in the executive elections conspired with a member of FF to stuff the ballot box in the commerce block with votes for the right wing candidates. As a result the right won a majority on the executive by just 25 votes.

by aidan Thu Apr 10, 2003 10:26

nobody doubts saddams brutality.. equally the world would be a better place without him... however the world would also be a better place if a) apparent democratic countries are elected democratically- George W Satan Bush
B) The war mongerers of the century.. Stalin, Hitler ,George W.Bush never existed
C) If people could open up there eyes to the reality of imperial wars......... the war in Iraq is far from finished.... what happened to the 100,000 members of the Republican guard ... did they just vanish into thin air

When the despotic american regime imposes its will and economic interests into the running of the Iraqi State ...one will see the repurcussions of their naivety in thinking that a Western regime can create institutions of its making and values in a civilisation that remembers years upon years of lies deception and sheer greed of uneducated fools like cheney and Bush. Equally i would like to ask Liberation Soc if they plan on extending there campaign to the liberation of the Palestinians from Israeli brutality and if they plan on adding Ariel Haron to there list quoted above?? also i was curious if they could give me an estimation of how many potential terrorists have been made a certainty from this imperial war??? why doesnt Law Soc hold a debate on this whole debacle so The students of UCD can express there opinions on this situation...... Damn naivety of the ucd hacks and sectarianism of ucd hacks!!

by Damien Thu Apr 10, 2003 10:15

I'm getting sick of debunking this propoganda. To say "Yes but America supported them in the past" is to ignore the realities of the world at the time in relation to Iran/Iraq and in a wider perspective the cold war. The Americians were more afraid of the global spread of the one thing thats killed most people in history, socialism, than of a few Arabs getting killed. At the time Saddam was, briefly, our boy.
but...

"In the key period between 1973-91 the US exported a mere $5 million of weapons to Iraq; more reprehensibly the UK sold $330 million-worth of arms. Of much greater interest are the arms export totals to Iraq of the four countries most against military action: Germany with $995 million, China $5,500 million, France $9,240 million, and the Russians a massive $31,800 million."
from http://www.iiss.org

Principled stance all round then from France et al. So yes the west sold him some arms, but unlike the far left, most people don't live in a world of moral absolutes. Theres this thing called 'time', it passes and things change. Why do you object to the West cleaning up its messes?
How would not having this war increased peace and justice in Iraq? Yes people have died, but whats certain is more people would have died had it not happened.How can I be so sure? Im basing it on the 2 million already killed. You only reinforce the total moral bankrupcy of your arguements and the fact that they're based on blatant reactionary anti-Americian prejudices by opposing a war once its in progress.
To bitch that theres some problems is a country after 35 years of tyranny and 3 weeks of war is well deluded, verging on the insane. It will take years to rebuild Iraq, and you're acting like this whole war was a sham because some people got killed by accident.

by Matthew Thu Apr 10, 2003 09:28

From BBc's Andrew Gilligan in Baghdad:

One of my close Iraqi friends went up to an American marine and said to him: "I'm going to exercise my right of free speech for the first time in my life - we want you out of here as soon as possible."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/2934651.stm

by scarecrow Thu Apr 10, 2003 08:57

this is starting to approach the absurd.

who MATERIALLY armed Iraqi regime in the 80s.

We all know the answer.

The right wing loonies are now accusing us of being Saddamists?

Well, things are going to be tough sledding now that the REAL Saddamists have lost their last "good" enemy.

The new wars will be a wee more difficult to arrange. But I have faith that true American know-how will eventually bring about some sort of thermo-nuclear shin-dig.

God Bless the Homeland.

by Caoimhin McCann Thu Apr 10, 2003 08:27 caoimhinmacanna at hotmail dot com

Q: Who supported Saddam's coming to power in the 60's.

A: The Americans even though they were in the full knowledge of his human rights violations.

Open yourself to more information sources Max don't be so naive.

by James McKenna Thu Apr 10, 2003 07:37

like this?

US troops fire on ambulance, two killed

Two Iraqis are dead and three wounded Wednesday after US troops shot at an ambulance in central Baghdad

http://english.aljazeera.net/topics/article.asp?cu_no=1&item_no=2261&version=1&template_id=277&parent_id=258