INDYMEDIA.IE THUG THREATENS INDEPENDENT JOURNALIST?? (Reply from 1 editor of many below)

by Aidan - IMC Ireland Sun Mar 30, 2003 15:52

Be a good dear and either put up or shut.

This has gotten tedious.

Make your complaint to whomever the hell you like.

by Fintan Dunne Sat Mar 29, 2003 04:57 guluinfo at gulufuture dot com

A person identified as "Aidan" on an electronic public noticeboard operated by Independent Media Centre (IMC) Ireland; and who has on the same noticeboard identified himself as a member of IMC Ireland; has just written in that publicly available "Newswire" forum the following in reference to myself, Fintan Dunne:

"...the newswire isn't the place for your false, spurious, made up lies about imaginary threatening phonecalls...."

That's libelous.

Saying one doesn't believe I got a threatening call is not libelous, and I would regard such as fair comment. But this last statemnet by a member of IMC and published by IMC Ireland is libel.

It injures my good name and reputation. I am formally requesting that Independent Media Centre (IMC) Ireland and the individual identified as "Aidan" correct the damage to my good name and reputation.

I most definitely recieved such a call. As a result of investigations by Meteor I am in a position to substantiate the basis of my statements on the matter.

The caller said: "I am the one who responded to your post." [about censorship]

He went on to say he had been to my website and that some of the material there: "is poison... pure poison."

He went on to say: "If I see any more of your posts on Indymedia.ie, I'll delete them straight away."

He finished with this: "You better be careful."

Then he hung up.

I support the Independent media concept espoused by IMC Ireland. However I will not allow malicious injury to my good name and reputation.

I have been carefull in my public statements on this matter to stay within the bounds of legally defensible comment. I regret I have not been accorded the same courtesy. I hope this matter can be resolved amicably, as I would only instigate legal proceedings with great reluctance.

by Aidan Fri Mar 28, 2003 14:43

My secret desire crushed....

by pat c Fri Mar 28, 2003 14:39

i fear you may have misunderstood my offer. i merely wanted you to be my diarist as boswell (not boisie) was to dr johnson.

by Eamonn C Fri Mar 28, 2003 13:50

Bit pointless expending energy on circular venting spleen self-therapy arguments at a time like this
Well connected warmongers could have called Fintan - it's not impossible - specially if his details are linked to a site - his headline was dodgy though - ppl in glass houses/ open data streams shouldn't throw stones

love to aidan and pat c love to c love to f

and all yiz looking for rows feck off to boards.ie they specialise

by Aidan Fri Mar 28, 2003 13:01

Cause my girlfriend would kick both our asses.

Charming offer though, keep with the wooing campaign, alternatively I hear Black "lunchbox" Pope may be out soon.

Oh and Fintan, I was thinking about your olive branch, considering your headline, your false accusations, and how pathetic your "olive branch" was...

Well I'd tell you where you could stick it, but I'd have to delete my comment for breaching our editorial guidelines.

by pat c Fri Mar 28, 2003 11:24

aidan

you need not always play whistler to my wilde; why not become my boswell?

by Aidan Fri Mar 28, 2003 11:08

Taking a moment from my fun morning of deleting comments like

"I eat poo"

off a post.

Or some of the abuse, racism and anti semitic nonsense, that gets floated about here.

So you can see how your "remove the delete button" without explaining your stance, is going to be meeted with, well, scorn.

We're not trying to censor debate or criticism about indymedia, its just the newswire isn't the place for your false, spurious, made up lies about imaginary threatening phonecalls and your hysterical tabloid like headlines. Okay?

Psychology 101:
Why, do you feel the need to say that?
Why, do you feel the need to say that?
Why, do you feel the need to say that?
Why, do you feel the need to say that?

Psychology 102:

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar fintan.

All that lenny kravitz appears to have melted your brain.

Knock yourself out, wander over to global, whatever.

by C. - goes to IMC meetings Fri Mar 28, 2003 11:08

You have to really work on this IMC site to keep in touch with these arguments. By this stage the story is off the frontpage and is well down the newswire. So anybody here, reading this, came looking for the row.

When someone disagrees with you there are ways of resolving the issues: the international ways seem to involve million dollar killing machines, hear we call each other fuckers and attack the person.

Cool - we're all like the big boys.

Fintan - have a think about why you caused all this stress - and lets revise the process so you and fred don't feel alienated.

Aidan - calm down. A suggestion has been made re. the editorial. This goes to the group and is discussed: there's no consensus of 1. When I started getting involved here I was v. pro-free speech. After a year of abuse (only about 5% of the wire but a really ugly 5%) I'm more willing to censor / control / delete the content here. But only if there is a consensus. With any debate I'm more nervous.

Take it that some of the comments identified as being from IMC volunteers do not have the consensus of everyone who chooses to identify themselves in that way.

Please, someone, post a 'no deletion' or a 'ratings' editorial policy suggestion to the lists: where discussion can be at least over mail and therefore have less posturing. (I disagree with both of these suggestions but am willing to discuss: ratings because they require log ins)

And BTW, now is a good time for all this as a volunteer seems to have opened up the codebase and made the whole more thing a lot more accessible and changeable. And there are people with real tech skills volunteering.

Solidarity.

by Fintan Dunne - http://www.GuluFuture.com Fri Mar 28, 2003 06:29

Now I just held out an olive branch a couple of posts back, and you Aidan, just pulled it out of my hand and stomped on it.

That's your choice. Pity though. One can hold out a hand of friendship but you can't stop someone from spitting on it.

You said:
>Suggest away
>by Aidan - IMC Ireland Thu, Mar 27 2003, 6:35pm
>Fintan asked that the delete/move button be >disabled on the newswire.
>
>Suggestion noted and ignored.

In any other situation I would just say well, fuck you for a self-important little tosspot, and leave it at that.

You seem to be operating under the delusion that just because you spend your time working on this site that you own it in some way. Indymedia is an internet free speech concept that internationally is the property of the people.

It's not Aidan.ie that you control. You better get that message. You don't own Indymedia. Period. You are instead entrusted with it as a RESPONSIBILITY. So you better start acting responsibly.

You must not realize how your statements are revealing your motivations to a neutral reader of all this.

You said: "We need to limit the volume of cross posts, spam, petitions, complaints about Indymedia"

So you need to limit the volume of complaints about Indymedia.ie, do you?

I question if you actually have a mindset compatible with the responsibility you need to exercise in relation to the free speech of others.

As Fred said: How quickly a great dream of democratic freedom and openness can turn to a Stalinist travesty of itself.

Don't think for a moment that the international Indymedia personell are fucking idiots who don't know how to decide for themselves if a particular Indymedia has been hijacked by a self-righteous clique.

I save all this as I go along for posting on the Indymedia.org thread on all this. It's irritating little fuckers like me -who just won't go along with the status quo- that change things.

There was this small irrirating little fucker once in South Africa. He refused to carry a Pass Book. Silly fuck couldn't get it through his head that those were the rules made by the local power maniacs. He went and burned his Pass book. So, they beat the shit out of him. Can't remember his name right now. Ghandi or something.

I'm not in his league by a mile, but I am saying again, that even though I have decided not to pursue the matter, someone definitely phoned me last night and threatened me.

You said: "We're not tin pot hitlers, we're a bunch of people who volunteer in our spare time to check the site. We're not doing this out of some weird lust for power. Honest."

Psychology 101:
Why, do you feel the need to say that?
Why, do you feel the need to say that?
Why, do you feel the need to say that?
Why, do you feel the need to say that?

I'd like to hear from other operators of this site if your opinions and attitude are a reflection of the ethos here.

by Intransigent Thu Mar 27, 2003 23:52

First comment there Avi. To be anti war doesn't mean that you are a 'nice' person who is opposed to violence. I see many of those anti war protestors as far from peace lovers. Being opposed to Imperialism doesn't always mean that talk your way out of the situation. Time to build for the insurrection. Long live the Intifada!

by Aidan - IMC Thu Mar 27, 2003 21:40

Valid points, which make an change for this thread.

We're not tin pot hitlers, we're a bunch of people who volunteer in our spare time to check the site. We're not doing this out of some weird lust for power. Honest.

Threads are deleted for a variety of reasons, for example cross posting theres little point in having 80 Indymedias is if 80 carry Fintans article, we want Indymedia Ireland to contain news thats unique to our site. Several other Indymedias run with this policy.

Seeing how we are being swamped at the moment we're enforcing our editorial guidelines stricter than usual.

If you don't like it, and you seem to be enthusatic towards the idea of Indymedia.

http://www.indymedia.ie/lists/

Join our mailing lists and get involved in the editorial decisions on the site.

As for the abuse Fintan has taken, running around screaming about censorship, and then accusing us of threatening him, isn't a chapter in "how to win friends and infulence people". Its hardly going to make us sympathetic to him is it?

Instead of running screaming onto the newswire, he could have approached us. See the "contact us" button on the top, beside subscribe.

The slashdot system, again we're looking at several different versions of new software, one has a rating system. This is an open and democratic news site, and despite what Pat C claims, we're not againist "outsiders" critizing us, but rather would like to see them use a better forum than the newswire, which should be (and call us crazy) there for news. It's no fun logging on to the site and seeing that someone, yet again, used it to have a go at us.

You think we're being over condesending to Fintan, whatever, and you may not mind that you have to scroll past the same article four times, but what about someone who doesn't have the luxury of unlimited net access?

We need to limit the volume of cross posts, spam, petitions, complaints about Indymedia, . Many people don't have the luxury of browsing at leisure, and if they're skimming through the site they may miss an important story because it's surrounded by chaff. Again this is just my opinion. You can take part in the site editorial list and voice your own opinion.

A vast amount of crap gets put up on Indymedias worldwide daily. Look at that Bushist chronicle idiot, or Hacktracman.

Also take a look at some of the developing world IMCs whos newswire are often unusable because of the volume of global spam that gets put on them, and they lack people with computer access to monitor the newswire.

So it's not a perfect system, but it is a transparent and open one, you're welcome to get involved. Invariably this is greeted with boo's and sneers from a small group of posters on the site, who sneer and say we can't take criticism, but I defy you to find an media organisation that offers their critcs opportunity to take part and change the direction in response to their attacks.

Its not perfect but we are trying.

by Fred Thu Mar 27, 2003 20:58

Fintan is one of my biggest finds on indymedia.ie over the last few days.

What exactly is going on here? Whatever lame-wad little Hitler in the editing department is doing this shit, would he please find another way to make a contribution to the anti-war movement.

If I wanted censorship, I'd live the UK. Heck, goddamn it I already do. Sorry about that.

Several days ago I posted an answer to a questioner who simply asked how we could be so sure this war was wrong.

I put a lot of thought into it only to find when I came back the next day it had completely disappeared.

At that point, I was completely new to the system so I wound up spending hours looking for it. Then I moved on to uk.indymedia thinking it might be there. Then I even went and had a look at sf.indymedia. No joy.

Finally, while reading other posts, I came across a reference to my post quoting the very words I had used. It was then I knew for sure I did post it here. Not only that but it had evidently stirred some thought, but what debate I will never know.

This is why we should start using a system more like slashdot. For those who don't know, it is self-editing. Only those who contribute most get editing privileges and they edit by assigning a score to different posts. Readers can then set their own threshold so that only posts above the threshold show up in their browsers, but no post is complete invisible. The system works well and is relatively free from that oppressive sense one has on boards like this that there is someone out there feeling insufficiently thanked who gets his rocks off on wielding the small amount of power he has over controlling other people's conversations.

Basically, if you are running an institution like this, you have a moral obligation to the people to whom it really belongs, namely its users.

And the first obligation is to place control in their hands.

I am sickened by the condescending tone used by editors towards Fintan ("over-enthusiastic" indeed). I don't mind if the guy posts his messages four times. I can handle that. That's why I have a scroll bar. What I can't handle is some little Hitler telling me what I can and cannot read.

How quickly a great dream of democratic freedom and openness can turn to a Stalinist travesty of itself.

This is why we need to be consistency. Someone called it the hobgoblin of foolish minds. It is not.

We can answer only one way the question "Is freedom of speech a good thing?"

Speech is most vulnerable when it is most offensive. But it remains, for all that, only speech. We need to be prepared to see the thing through.

Above all, _I_ want to be in control of what I can read.

That's why I come to indymedia. I'll take plenty of noise with my signal, thank you. Just so long as it's _my_ signal.

by Aidan - IMC Ireland Thu Mar 27, 2003 20:35

a) Thank the people who have not accused me of lying about the phone call.

We'd also like to thank you for your snide insinuation that we threatened you.

by Aidan - IMC Ireland Thu Mar 27, 2003 19:35

g) Ask that the delete/move button be disabled on the newswire.

Suggestion noted and ignored.

by Fintan Dunne Thu Mar 27, 2003 18:59 guluinfo at gulufuture dot com

Just a moment, folks.

First, can I suggest you to go to

http://www.rockthevote.org

and download the FREE Lenny Kravitz song
Then play it endlessly on your PC as you
work for peace. It's a rockin' and infectious
track and at least as good as "American Woman"

I been playing it for about 12 hours now.
Non-stop.

WE WANT PEACE

by Lenny Kravitz
with Kazem Al Sahir, Iraq's #1 pop artist
and a true legend of Arabic Music.
With Palestinian Simon Shaheen on strings
and Lebanese Jamey Hadded on percussion.

LYRICS:
Come on People, it's time to get together.
It's Time for the Revoluuutttttionnn!!

Here it is once again in our face,
Why haven't we learned from out past.
We're at the crossroads of the human race,
Why are we kicking our own ass?

We want peace, we want it.
Yes, we want peace, we want it.
Yes we want peace, and we want it fast!

We're on the Eve of Destruction, my friends
We are about.. to go too far.
Politicians think that war is the way,
But we know that love has the power.

We want peace, we want it.
Yes, we want peace, we want it.
Yes we want peace, and we want it fast!

The solution is simple and plain,
There won't be Peace if we don't try.
In a war there is nothing to gain,
And so many people will die.

We want peace, we want it.
Yes, we want peace, we want it.
Yes we want peace, and we want it fast!

Second, can I:

a) Thank the people who have not accused me of lying about the phone call.

b) Forget about it and concentrate on the important business of stopping this war.

c) Accept that I have more in common with most folks here than needs stating, even Dathai whose itchy finger deleted my posts.

d) Note that I have pissed myself laughing at some of the responses to Avi's zionist ramblings.

e) Declare that the phone phreak has failed in his divisive mission.

f) Suggest that even those who only post links articles or extracts have a place on the Newswire.

g) Ask that the delete/move button be disabled on the newswire.

h) State that peace is a way, and a life -not a movement of opposition to anything.

i) Celebrate that it therefore starts right here and now in this post.

Peace Brothers
Peace Sisters
Thanks Lenny, you're right. Why are we kicking our own ass?

Go to:
http://www.rockthevote.org

Rock to Lenny

" Come on People, it's time to get together.
It's Time for the Revoluuutttttionnn!! "

by pat c Thu Mar 27, 2003 17:11

look out for the beam in your own eye. (or could it be a twinkle?)

aah, he still doesnt see the irony of him being outraged at the idea of anyone daring to criticise imc from the outside.

by Daithi Thu Mar 27, 2003 17:08

Jim Cairns was the missing persons guy. My favourite bit was Satanic symbols in the RTE screen ID. I always knew Bryan Dobson had a weird look in his eyes and it suddenly made sense. Alas, he never took up our offer to point out the hidden meaning of the Indymedia logo. David Icke come back, all is forgiven.

I have a further nomination; Jon Chance, and his satellite "anti-fascist", who says our policy on crossposting was obviously designed to suppress the critical analysis of crazy Chance. As you will recall that exchange ended in a declaration that Daithi, GreenPartyMike, Iosaf, Aidan and perhaps a few other people were all aliases for the same fascist that had taken control of IMC. Followed by a succession of weird and wonderful Iosaf responses to the by then very distressed spammer.

And how in the world could you leave out William Finnerty? There will be a letter going to every TD, the Pope, Roy Keane, a Garda trainee in Ballydehob, the UN, WHO, WTO, WIPO, and the rest of the alphabet soup, claiming that you have neglected his inherent lunacy and failed to acknowledge his struggle.

by Aidan - IMC Ireland Thu Mar 27, 2003 16:46

And getting all misty eye'd at the cranks and nutcases who have flung abuse at Indymedia over the past year or so, and so I've complied a list of my top five, feel free to add your own.

No. 5 Pat C. for accusing of being Pro Zionist, anti republican, pod people (oh you kooky guy, see I do have a sense of humour).

No. 4 Dave Noone, this Neo Nazi Holocaust denier accused us of being "totalitarian oppressors" (this a personal favourite)

No. 3 John whatis his name, from the "missing persons archive"; he called us pawns of the Irish illuminati. (I'm serious)

No. 2 That nutcase luther guy from last week. He posted under many names and accused us, across the IMC network, of being infilrated by Israeli agents,(I'm sure Avi H is both shocked and relieved)

No. 1 (and a new entry) Fintan, Fintan makes wild allegations accuses us of thuggery and threatening phonecalls, newsflash fintan, we have way better things to do with our time.

What all this people have in common is using IMC Ireland to tell us just how shit and evil we are.

What is it Sideshow Bob said?

"And yes I am aware of the irony of going to TV to decry it, so theres no need to point it out"

God bless you guys.

by the peacemaker Thu Mar 27, 2003 16:29

Ah leave the poor twat alone. Israel is going through a major crisis at the moment. They have this sort of a half-arsed semi-socialist kibbutz-style welfare state (for themselves) combined with an industrial military complex (for keeping their neighbours quiet) all kept afloat by money pumped in from the US and the war-time reparations from Germany and elsewhere which are still dribbling in.
Pretty soon the Germans are going to tell them to f**k off, no more blood money. And the US is probably going to have problems keeping up the subventions too. Meanwhile their economy is going down the tubes because they have neglected the fine art of attempting peaceful co-existence with their neighbours.

But don't worry a wave of remorseless Thatcherite cutbacks will soon sort out those welfare spongers and they might learn what it means to stand on their own two feet and work for a living instead of eternally milking the sacred cow ....

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/

by curious Thu Mar 27, 2003 16:17

Avi maybe you could please enlighten us what useful and productive contribution you yourself make to the world ...
You can't be very busy if you have so much time to post such nonsensical drivel as you do here ...

Why aren't you out there in unform at the front line defending your people from those beastly palestinian terrorists that you are always complaining about ... and driving bulldozers over naive american "peace activists" ?
We want no shirkers in the war against terrorism you know ... time to do your duty and shoot a few israeli strikers ....

by kokomero Thu Mar 27, 2003 15:45

Avi,

this time you've really plumbed the depths, not to say that your previous "opinions" were uncontroversial if not completely insane.

Given all those commie peacenik Israelis you hate so much are planning to go on strike, you are I'm sure, already preparing mass-graves for when you have them shot for treason.

Or maybe you'd like to bulldoze them instead like Rachel Corrie as it would save on the cost of bullets seeing as you're so worried about money?

The only person who needs a shot (of elephant-tranquilisers) is you as you are quite obviously deranged given your latest outburst.

by Bini-Wennie Thu Mar 27, 2003 14:46

Israel faces general strike

Israel's unions are preparing to call a general strike.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2880575.stm

by Rinat Thu Mar 27, 2003 14:44

Ah shut yer trap Avi ....

by Avi H. Thu Mar 27, 2003 14:41

And shot by firing squad you bunch of Anti American/Anti Israeli lazy commies who would use any excuse (the war against islamic terrorists being the latest) to go on strike and disrupt the everyday business of the vast majority of law abiding people ("The silent majority"). That and your marches which should also be banned.

by pat c Thu Mar 27, 2003 14:17

eamonn as you can see aidan is totally devoid of any sense of humour.

i dont know if it would be safe for us to have a non-virtual meeting.

two such massive egos coming into close proximity might well reach a critical mass and create a chain reaction which would threaten the very fabric of the Multiverse.

by Aidan - IMC Ireland Thu Mar 27, 2003 14:07

Nice shot across the bows Pat, I am patient, just at the end of my rope when it comes to your spurious nonsense.

Fintan, I dispute that the phonecall happened at all. I think you are making it up, I mean you make a claim of thuggery, you have no evidence to support your claim, not even in the terse imaginary phonecall.

The hyperbole of this articles title lets us know that you are a headline grabber demanding attention, and frankly your complaint is being dealt with the contempt that it deserves.

We run the site with editorial guidelines, and you've breached them, try to respect them, and your articles will be allowed, running around screaming accusations of censorship and thuggery, fine knock yourself out, but don't expect us to take you seriously

by Andrew Thu Mar 27, 2003 13:49

Well if I was 'grand dictator' I'd delete a lot of those as well, maybe say anything with less then 200 words has to be about immediate news (eg Raython occupied) which would get rid of the 'I hate the ABC because they are all fat' comments which make up 90% of such posts (Ha - even ABC stands for something I realise after I type it).

What are needed are a set of simple but unambiguous guidelines for what counts as 'creation' and 'news' and what does not.

by sniper Thu Mar 27, 2003 13:33

"Personally I think the editors should be a lot harder on this and simply delete any article that is obviously a cut and paste job. That would encourage those who are serious enough to go to the bother of creating articles/photos/videos. Luck I'm not an editor I guess!"

No please !!!!!
We would be left with the mudslinging interchanges of various obscure left-wing factions engaged in their own obscure internecine struggles to become the dominant left-wing faction .....

by Andrew Thu Mar 27, 2003 13:07

Perhaps you guys have misunderstood what indymedia is about. It does not exist to create a space for 'free speech' in the sort of abstract I can post as much crap as I like way you guys imagine. It defines itself (from the About link above) as "for the creation of radical, accurate, and passionate tellings of the truth"

Now of course what the truth is will always be subject to controvesy so the editors limit themselves to asking for sources of the more controveral claims posted here. But the key word above is 'creation'. This implies the production of something new. This is not what you guys do - instead you spam the newswire with articles from other areas of the net that you reckon should be read by people visiting indymedia. Not only is this NOT what the site if about it actually undermines it.

Give this some thought, Researching and writing an article (''creating') takes a lot of time. If I spend a day doing this but after posting it is driven off the newswire by someone like you posting articles you've found elsewhere then I'm less likely to bother the next time. Five minutes of article spamming can discourage a days hard work.

Personally I think the editors should be a lot harder on this and simply delete any article that is obviously a cut and paste job. That would encourage those who are serious enough to go to the bother of creating articles/photos/videos. Luck I'm not an editor I guess!

by captain of industry Thu Mar 27, 2003 13:06

That is mighty true Fintan ....
Seems like yesterday's victims often mutate into today's oppressors ...

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/

by eamonn Thu Mar 27, 2003 13:03

Note I said 'Presently active' - you and aidan are a fine pair and if you havent met in the offline - y'all should ;-)

by Fintan Dunne Thu Mar 27, 2003 12:47 guluinfo at gulufuture dot com

If your posts were deleted then you have a valid complaint. I certainly feel, and other Indymedia sites do too it seems, that free speech means what it says.

If you think the responses to your pretty callous comment about Rachel Corrie was strong then you should go to Indymedia.org and try posting there.

It's savagery at times there. Yet the posts are allowed, and rightly so.

We had a law in the Republic banning views held by "illegal" organizations from TV and Radio. It's abandonment allowed the Peace Process to develop.

Here's an great exercise. Pick a list of ten things you believe strongly. Then practice thinking the exact opposite about each of them for five minutes each belief. It really limbers up your brain and may even make you a more tolerant person.

Start by imagining that Rachel Corrie is your daughter and was a noble defender of truth. Go ahead, try it. Let me know how you get on.

Or you might read my article:

SEX, POLITICS
& THE BATTLE FOR
VICTIMHOOD SUPREMACY
http://www.GuluFuture.com/future/victimhood.htm

EXTRACT:

THE LEAGUE OF VICTIMS

In Northern Ireland, the cultural view underpinning the Catholic Provisional IRA war campaign was founded in the "800 years of British oppression" victim psyche of Irish history.

Yet the Protestant Unionist community soon countered by claiming that they too had become the victims of a "Pan-Nationalist" conspiracy to deprive them of their rights to express their culture.

This victimhood view took firm enough root in the Unionist psyche to legitimize barbaric, tribalist counter-reaction. Both groups are in dubious company.

Hitler's hyperbole over German victimization led to a world war. Palestinian victimhood justifies murderous suicide bombers. Israelis may look like oppressors right now, but they hasten to remind themselves and the world that they too come from a Holocaust victim heritage....

http://www.GuluFuture.com/future/victimhood.htm

by serial abuser Thu Mar 27, 2003 12:29

If you are referring to me, Avi, I have absolutely no wish or inclination to "intimidate" you or anybody else from posting. You are perfectly correct about freedom to publish your views.
All I wanted to say is that you are a bit naive if you expect to get appreciation from many Irish people for your "unorthodox" (actually rather clicheed orthodox pro-Zionist views). If you understood anything about Irish history you might be able to understand why the racist arrogance of Zionists leaves a lot of Irish people rather cold (to say the least).

If the flak you get disturbs you that's too bad but you needn't expect it to abate just because you don't like it. As you said yourself combat is combat and these things happen.

PS: You didn't give your opinion on Israel Shamir yet.

And by the way how is Mordechai Vanunu, is he back in solitary or have they let him out again .... ?

by Avi H. Thu Mar 27, 2003 12:17

By the way, I don't see why I should be intimidated not to post on this site, just because a few people disagree with me. As I understand it, correct me if I am wrong, this is an open forum dedicated to free speech.

Or are opinions that don't fit in with some unspoken orthodoxy just too 'irritating'?

If so, it discredits everything most contributors to this site apparently profess to stand for.

by Lord Rothermere Thu Mar 27, 2003 12:11

Fintan old chap you may indeed have some sort of a point about the old freedom of speech bit .....

However I wonder if your own approach might not also be a bit questionable ... after all posting "News of the World" style headlines may not be the non plus ultra of journalistic credibility .....
The headline was "INDYMEDIA.IE THUG THREATENS INDEPENDENT JOURNALIST ??" (yes I see the question marks).

But what we have in fact is "Independent journalist alleges that he was threatened by indymedia.ie thug" ...

Your allegation may very well be true - I am in no position to judge that - but if you can prove it then I would suggest that it is a matter for the courts if you are so inclined.

by Fintan Dunne Thu Mar 27, 2003 11:54 guluinfo at gulufuture dot com

Thanks kokomero for the advice. But it was by looking up my site registration info that the caller got my number. It's there because I don't worry about securocrats and radio people get me for interviews that way.

The call came in on my mobile --so no answerphone or recording possible-- and it did not log, so the clever little threatener has his CLI ID turned off on his phone. However the Meteor computer will have his number anyway.

by Fintan Dunne Thu Mar 27, 2003 11:40 guluinfo at gulufuture dot com

Thank you Eamonn for at least looking into the matter.

For the last 12 hours all anyone at Indymedia.ie has done is simply delete my posts about both the initial censorship and the subsequent threatening phonecall.

Please don't jump to conclusions --as I have tried not to as well. Note that I placed TWO question marks after the title of this post about thuggery.

Also, please note that I have taken care to state in the post that I have NO proof Indymedia.ie staff were involved in the threatening call.

It must be said though that the tone was set by the first response by Dathai to my complaint of censorship --which was far from friendly.

I wish I could show you the previous overnight discussion between myself and the site operators, but as I say they have all been deleted. This is the first post to survive.

Finally, I am a responsible journalist, not in the habit of making false allegations. I was certainly threatened last night, let me assure you.

All that arose because I tried to make reasonable points about the fact that Indymedia.ie editors delete/move posts at will, making a mockery of the concept of Open Publishing and rendering it subject to individual bias.

I am not talking about deletions of obviously abusive, commercial or similar uncontentious posts, but ad-hoc decisions that certain stories are mere "clutter" on the indymedia.ie newswire.

That is a debatable issue, but what is disturbing is that there is no clear right of appeal, no log of deleted posts as happens on other Indymedia sites and worst of all the willfull deletion of posts like mine which complain of censorship.

If Indymedia.ie can delete posts with no redress; and delete posts complaining about this, then that pretty much closes the circle and shuts the door to free speech does it not? That's why other Indymedia sites address this issue in their deletion policies.

I have more information which can help address the issue of whether or not it was Indymedia.ie staff who threatened me -if you care to email me.

by kokomero Thu Mar 27, 2003 11:35

Feeling sorry for yourself again Avi? Suffering from a Massada complex today are we?

Sorry to disappoint you but my comment on your not handing out your personal data is not a threat, implied or otherwise.

I have no interest in anything about you but your warped opinions on world affairs posted on this site which I feel duty bound to rebutt!

Again having an argument online cannot possibly be construed as a threat by any but paranoid self-pitying attention-seekers.

I simply believe it makes good sense not to hand out personal info. in this type of forum given that it is surely monitored and is sometimes frequented by people who are up to no good.

Am I wrong?

by harley davidson Thu Mar 27, 2003 11:27

What is your favorite ....?

by C. Thu Mar 27, 2003 11:25

Fintan:

http://topica.com/lists/imc-ireland-hidden/ gives a list of all the deleted posts on this site. I can see a couple of posts complaining about censorship and a comment from Daithi regarding this - but no sign of the original post. (Daithi didn't do all the deletions).

Was the original post crossposted?

Avi:
I agree with you re. the COC comment - a request to delete this would have been acted on as it is definitely abusive etc. Use the contact form (or come onto the lists).

It's good to see that Indymedia.ie has moved away from the war and is now back on the important business of attacking the evil cabal (anarchist / swp / zionist / west brit ) that donates time to IMC.

by mossad thought police Thu Mar 27, 2003 11:24

How dare you criticise Avi .....
Are you or have you ever been an "anti-semite" ?
Don't you know that if you dare to criticise the actions of the IDF you may be arraigned and charged with fomenting "anti-semitism" (at least by Avi) ....
Even the merest critical thought may be punishable ........

by x Thu Mar 27, 2003 11:20

I called Fintan a spammer, because he is a spammer. he posts his stuff everwhere. if everybody did that then the whole system would b be unusable.

but my comment was deleted!!

He's a spammer and i just said the truth. why was my comment deleted?

spammer spammer spammer spammer

by serial abuser Thu Mar 27, 2003 11:20

Avi you attract so much abuse here not primarily for racist reasons, i.e. not because you are an Israeli, but because - and let us be frank - you are an arrogant self-righteous Zionist plonker .....

I am sufficiently well informed to know that Zionism is a political tradition among Jews which trys to conflate politics with race and religion and consistenly smears all its opponents as "anti-semitic" (if they are Goyim) or "self-hating
Jews" if they are happen to be Jewish (in which case the "anti-semitic" slur doesn't work too well) ...

Also a small word of advice to you and your countrymen. I have a lot of contact with people from continental European countries and over the last year or so I see a few changes taking place. In most countries people - even the relatively apolitical are beginning to see through the old "anti-semitic" shite and how it is used as a political tactic to silence any political opponent who dares to criticise Israeli foreign policy.
And this is going to have consequences for Israel. Did you know that Germany and, as far as I am aware, Austria still pay reparations to Israel from the second world war ? For how much longer I wonder ... just wait and see ... the fallout from the Möllemann affair has only just begun in Germany for example ... and the invasion of Iraq has made the scales fall from many people's eyes ......

And one last point, this site is indymedia.ie. That means that a lot of the people who post here are Irish. If you expect Irish people to appreciate your ideologically biased efforts to tell them what they should think about Middle East affairs then you are sadly deluded. If you don't like what you hear then go off and post on israeli indymedia or why not try the electronic intafada site .... perhaps an attempt to cultivate a bit of dialog with your Palestinian neighbours might do some good ......

PS: If you don't like my attitude have a look at Israel Shamir's discussion of anti-semitism:
http://www.israelshamir.net/english/discussionofantisemitism.shtml

Now tell me is Israel Shamir an "anti-semite" or just a good old "self-hating jew" ......
Or maybe he is just a plain old Jewish critic of certain Zionist political practices .....

(FYI: Israel Shamir is a critically acclaimed and respected Russian Israeli Writer and Journalist. He wrote for Haaretz, BBC, Pravda and translated Agnon, Joyce and Homer into Russian. He lives in Jaffa and has become a leading champion of the 'One Man, One Vote, One State' solution in all of Palestine/Israel. His writings are mostly in English but you can also read some of his articles translated into Arabic, French, Hungarian, Italian, Norwegian, Polish, Turkish, Russian and Spanish.
http://www.israelshamir.net/Israel_Shamir__Biography.html
)

by Avi H. Thu Mar 27, 2003 11:19

Surely also, all posts which contain a direct or implied threat of physical violence should be removed, as for example the previous contributor's ??

'Avi, however is clever enough not to give out personal data which is a good move on his part.'

This is easy stuff, isn't it?

Otherwise, I can see this site being closed down and the operators being prosecuted under the criminal law.

by Avi H. Thu Mar 27, 2003 11:16

Sorry I got the name and the subject the wrong way round in the previous post. I have been threatened with physical violence and I would call the following posts pretty outrageous:

Combat Is Combat
by COC Wed, Mar 26 2003, 5:24pm

Hitler gassing the Jews in WW2 was just combat.Pity he didn't get you and all.

or this:

Sometimes I wonder ....
by too true Wed, Mar 26 2003, 10:39pm

Why that ultra-Zionist dork bothers to post here ... why doesn't he f**k off and post his garbage on israeli indymedia ....

Those kind of posts getting very close to, if not over the line, of incitement to racial hatred, and as such, serious criminal offences.

by Fintan Thu Mar 27, 2003 11:10

You're missing the point. I didn't ask you to agree with my views. I was pointing out that apparently it is ok for people to post directly racist and abusive comments addressed to other contributors. I get that all the time. There is something very wrong with that kind of behaviour, don't you think, whether or not you agree with someone's views. Surely, directly racist, abusive comments should be removed by the editors?

by kokomero Thu Mar 27, 2003 11:08

First of all ignore Avi's crocodile tears, he is an attention seeker and provocateur who revels in the attention and thrives on self-pity, all the while making outrageous "defence" of the criminal regieme in occupied Palestine. Poor Avi doesn't even understand irony when people use his own methods against him.

Avi, however is clever enough not to give out personal data which is a good move on his part.

From your own point of view if you plan on giving out your mobile number or other personal data (and I wouldn't if I were you as even the IP addresses used to post to this site are surely logged by securocrats both domestic and foreign) ensure that you note the number of any caller harassing you and get caller-ID if you don't have it for your landline (this I would definitely not give out).

A small tape recorder or call screening using an answering machine would also allow you to log such threatening calls and possibly post them back here as wav files along with the thugs telephone number you have logged.

I'm sure we could all ring the guy and let him know what we think of him in the early hours of the morning. After a few days of that he should get the message.

by pat c Thu Mar 27, 2003 11:06

but...

"I know all of the IMC Editors presently active and they are all polite, patient and hardworking people not given to threatening and abusing anyone "

While Aidan is hardworking and non-threatening, his recent postings have shown that he is neither polite, patient or non-abusive.

I know, I can be all of the above as well. but IMC editors arent saints. ;)

by Fintan Dunne Thu Mar 27, 2003 11:03 guluinfo at gulufuture dot com

Dear Avi,

I have read your comment on the death of Rachel Corrie.

To me it expresses a callous disregard for the loss of a human life. Here it is:

Avi: "Combat is combat. These things happen, unfortunately. Those who have never been in combat wouldn't understand."

Why would they not understand, Avi? Is it because they haven't been desentisized by the taking of human life? Does your comment imply that you have
so desentisized?

Avi, have you seen the photographs of the deceased Rachel Corrie? It is a sickening sight to anyone with an active and engaged humanity.

The comment you made about the loss of a human life is the sort of comment made routinely by the protagonists on both sides in the Northern Ireland conflict. "Combat is combat" Thankfully, we have matured here on this island of Ireland. And we no longer find such comments reasonable.

Whether it's Rachel Corrie, or the mother and her children who burned alive in their car in the Baghdad bombing yesterday, or the pitiful corpse of some young American soldier lying on the floor of an Iraqi warehouse, they are all tragic losses.

To dismiss them as otherwise is to be less than fully human.

The photo of Rachel Corrie burning a flag is an obvious fake, by the way. But the photo of her bruised and broken body is real enough for me to mourn her loss.

You should do so too.

Almost all the responses to your inflammatory statement were restrained, but for one.

Don't expect me to endorse your callous statement.

by E crudden Thu Mar 27, 2003 11:00

Indymedia is a democratic newswire. We want to see and hear the real stories, news, and opinions from around the country. While we struggle to maintain the newswire as a completely open forum we do monitor it and remove posts.

In general, posts may be removed for any of the following reasons:

being comments, not news - comments belong with the story being discussed - to have your say in response to a story on the site, use the "add your comments" link at the bottom of each story.

duplicate posts - make sure you've read the newswire

infactual or obviously false posts - the onus is on the author to check and confirm facts - if a factual error is brought to our attention it will be removed

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by Eamonn Crudden Thu Mar 27, 2003 10:50

This guy's articles have been used on the site and may have been compiled into one post at times by an editor working from Canada : I know all of the IMC Editors presently active and they are all polite, patient and hardworking people not given to threatening and abusing anyone - I challenge the above person to complain to the Authorities about this and let them investigate if they would want to - I doubt he will as this to me is an attempt to hinder our operation in these critical and difficult times

by Avi H. Thu Mar 27, 2003 10:32

Fintan, check out the sort of vile abuse I have to contend with, just for expressing my opinion on this site. Just because people disagree with me, they think it gives them the right to act in a bestial manner. A lot of anti-war people are anything but non-violent and democratic, obviously.

http://www.indymedia.ie/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi?id=38080