Trotskyites Lick Judges Boots

by SocialDem watcher Tue Dec 17, 2002 15:10

UCD students watch out for Social Democrats and right wing splitters!

by JC - SWP Tue Dec 17, 2002 15:19

Who are you 'Trotwatcher'. You should at least give your name if you are to make groundless accusations at decent activists and revolutionaries in the SP. I am not a big fan of the SP but at least I respect their genuine activists. 'Trotwatch' you should be ashamed of yourself, it seems to me that you would like to see FF continue in power in UCD just because of some irrational problem with the SP.

by Ray Tue Dec 17, 2002 15:38

So these guys apologised to the court to avoid being jailed for contempt. Big deal. I'm sure some people would argue that its better to be jailed than to apologise, but its hardly selling out the revolution either way.

by Angry Activist Tue Dec 17, 2002 15:42

The City Jet dispute is beyond the comprhension of "trotwatcher". SP members there are engaged in real struggle over union recognition. SP are actually engaged in the struggles of workers for basic rights.

If you were in court you would see that SP members did show contempt to the court! If you were there you would have seen the 9 accused defend themselves well and not compromise.

Why the reference to UCD? what's your problem there? are you a ucd student? if so why not name yourself?

by UCD student - CFE Tue Dec 17, 2002 15:45

who is this slagging off SP. I went to the CFE meetings in ucd after demos and the SY members were never selling out students. SY consistently called for militant action. Before you accuse me of being an SY member, I'm not, although I do support militant action against fees. If anything it was the labour party that were arguing for tame action like handing in letters, and arguing against occupations!

by TROTWATCH Tue Dec 17, 2002 15:48

They were reported as making these remarks (Irish Times13/12/02). Are you implying they did not? Lets hear from the apologisers.

Its one thing purging contempt its another entirely to crawl before a Judge.

SWPer, if you knew what the Trotsky Twins were like in UCD, you would also be cagey about letting yer name out.

by OK - SP Tue Dec 17, 2002 15:53

I think that "trotwatch" has a problem with the SP in his college.

I am not going to engage in a debate with someone that has personal problems and grudges. I would be very willing to debate Socialists' approach to the courts, parliament, and other bourgeois institutions. But it is clear that "trotwatch" doesn't want to engage in a proper debate.

Postings like this only ruin indymedia. Indymedia has the potential of being a great website for news and debate. Unfortunatly it's ruined by the likes of "trotwatch" that just wants to have a go at other lefts.

I'm not going to return to this thread again.

by chris loughlin - sp Tue Dec 17, 2002 15:57

well done you are a ucd student and you obviously have a dislike ofr 'trotsky twins' nd nyone who knows either of thee 2 very good sp and sy and student activists would know who they were.

i applaud the work of comrades o'brien and keane andthe cityjet strikers keep up the good work. as for trotwatcher, you didnt post up news why not post up the article? you obviously have some axe to grind.

by Angrier Activist Tue Dec 17, 2002 15:57

In UCD they carry on as if they and only they were the ones who had the true line. I've commented on them here before but you cannot get a real discussion going.

They are right because they say they are right; therefore: they are right. I dont trust anyone who believes that all truth and reason comes out of the couple of pamphlets they have read.

Their behaviour in court is a foretaste of what they would be like if things ever really heated up in UCD.

Keep these Boy bolsheviks away from me.

by the way Tue Dec 17, 2002 16:01

this posting reads like a red scare article. Its probably put up by a labourite that does not like "millies taking over". 'Trotwatcher' should really be watching out for capitalists and right-wingers, not attacking left-wing activists

by very angry activist - ucd Tue Dec 17, 2002 16:05

When things heated up in ucd over the past while who was it that compromised and went for weak action? who was it that argued for handing in a letter to the college authorities instead of occupation? who was it that went soft on the USI leaders in the referendum?

I'm sure that SY members would engage in a debate with you or anyone else. I always discuss politics with them and they are open to honest discussions.

anonymous postings that just slag off others is pathetic and it is wrecking indymedia

by Andrew Tue Dec 17, 2002 16:15

The original post is a bit silly I agree but 'very angry activist' don't you think its a bit rich to be writing "anonymous postings that just slag off others is pathetic and it is wrecking indymedia" when you yourself are making an "anonymous posting" slagging off some (admittidly un-named) group? Not the first time you've done so either (presuming you are also 'angry activist'). If you feel others should use their names you should probably start by using yours!

by iosaf has gone to bed with a bolshevika once - it was oh how do I say wonderful. Tue Dec 17, 2002 17:05

and I think that they who incidently hang out at
http://www.swm.ie
and
http://socialistparty.ie
get lots of silly slack from anons.
and together we are all going to stop this.
be linking to each others words.
Have you trotwatcher/trothater/troty trotty trotteee ever been in court?
and have you ever been accused of contempt?
and have you ever looked across the silly arena that is a judiciary and thought, |][¨?¿?Ç¿$%&
that´s webspeak for contempt of court.
it strikes us in different ways.
I often feel contempt for court, though I used to suffer it mroe years ago. I in an attempt to better understand my community in London sold Big Issue magazine at the door of the Temple of Lawyers in Holborn London, I used watch the barristers and wiggeeeees go trundling down to the courts and think contempously how silly they were. Though one I must admit used buy an issue on thursdays always the most popular day for some reason.
maybe the buyers got paid on Thursdays?
my advice to you anonmymous poster is go to bed with a bolshevik, it can be a most rewarding experience.

by MOB - sp Tue Dec 17, 2002 18:43

I had no intention of gifting any High Court judge with an opportunity to bang me up.
Identify yourself "Trotwatcher" and if you ever turn up in front of a High Court judge on commital procedings you can show me how it's done.

by Activist Tue Dec 17, 2002 20:03

Trotwatchs comment would be worthy of debate if he/she was active in some way in the City Jet dispute. So heres some questions that Trotwatch might care to answer:

What have you done, personally, to assist the City Jet workers?

What would you have done if you were one of the accused in the High Court?

Have you ever been in court for political activity and what course of action did you take, that was more 'revolutionary' than the people who were in the High Court last Friday?

I stand to be corrected but somehow I suspect that Trotwatch spends a lot more time having a go at genuine activists than actually engaging in any activism.

As a point of information the activists in court on Friday included members of the Socialist Party, Irish Socialist Network and unaffiliated individuals. All were found guilty of contempt and must pay costs, which are quite hefty.

The City Jet dispute which is about low pay and union recognition continues, so maybe less time on the keyboards and more time supporting the strikers, eh Trotwatch?

by Phuq Hedd Tue Dec 17, 2002 20:14

Fair play to the SP members for supporting the CityJet strikers. They have nothing to apologise for in their actions.

by Brian Purcell Tue Dec 17, 2002 20:22

It's amazing how most of you militants are too afraid to post your names! If your going to criticise someone at least say who you are.

by Brian Cahill - Socialist Party Tue Dec 17, 2002 21:36

Even by the low standards of some of the anonymous abuse posted on Indymedia this particular article is incredible.

Socialist Party members are deeply involved in helping a small group of strikers involved in a bitter struggle against an anti-union company in Dublin Airport (City Jet). On a number of occasions their activity has seen them hauled up in front of the courts and charged with contempt. On at least one occasion Socialist Party members have been imprisoned along with some of the strikers for a brief period. Others, including members of the Irish Socialist Network, have similarly done their best to help.

So what turns up on Indymedia? Not offers of help or even congratulations but abuse because the various people up in court yesterday didn't pointlessly get themselves sent to jail for an indefinite period.

And along with this abuse we get the same cretin complaining that Socialist Youth will somehow sell out the Campaign for Free Education in UCD... despite the fact that at every turn it has been Socialist Youth arguing to step up the campaign, to take more direct action and to use more militant tactics.

It is difficult to have anything but contempt for the likes of "Trotwatch".

by kev - webmaster @ sp Tue Dec 17, 2002 22:41

http://www.socialistparty.net

just a little clarification for all my hard (unpaid) work.

by Jesse D. - Suburban Resistance Network Wed Dec 18, 2002 15:58 gramsci420 at yahoo dot ca

What was that article supposed to prove, you aren't a revolutionary if you don't feel like going to jail where they want you to be?

I can tell you that these people are far more damaging to the state out of jail than they are in. I guess the mandate of any true revolutionary should be martyrdom. What a silly article.

by Dan - Socialist Alternative Wed Dec 18, 2002 17:15

I know SY in ucd and have worked with them on a number of campaigns. I think that the attack on them here is totally unfounded and quite immature

by Pat C Wed Dec 18, 2002 17:22

There is no point in abusing a Judge, if you get sent down for contempt, you are going to have to purge it at some stage. There isn't going to be a General Strike to get you released.

I have been before Judges on two occasions & in both cases I found that being polite works. One I got fined £1, in the other I got the Probation act. Should I have refused to recognise the court & get the maximum sentence? Lose my job? Expect a general strike to get me out?

Denis & Michael have both proved themselves as socialists over the years. I tracked down the news item mentioned and what trotwatch failed to mention was other statements by Denis and Michael.

Michael said cityjet was riding roughshod over health and safety matters. Denis said hes was there to hand out health and safety leaflets. This is not what you could call kowtowing to a Judge.

**Where can I contact to get more info on support for the cityjet strikers? i have a poster which might be of some use.

On UCD, I dont know whats happening out there but it should not be used as a excuse to attack genuine socialists who are supporting workers in struggle.

I think trotwatcher is just a troll. Others may have reason to complain.

I have clashed with some of the UCD SP members here and I know what they can be like. I was called a nationalist, catholic nationalist and even a fascist because i disagreed with them on the national question. ( I gave as good as i got, but hopefully we should just be able to agree to disagree over the national question)

If you have disagreements with them then stick to that. Post your complaints here (if they are newsworthy). Then the SP should reply to and acknowledge the right of people to criticise their policies and actions.

but be careful that your actions do not end up giving succour to FF.

by iosaf Wed Dec 18, 2002 17:49

i want to see us sharing each others websites and realising that now there are very nasty enemies of us all on this newswire everyday.
There will be no progress for any of our agendas if we are split now.
Yes we think differently on many issues.
But we are not the rightwing economic indicator tinkering apologists.
Nor are we the overt and tacit supporters of a slide in to global crypto-fascism.

by james redmond - socialist alternative (personal capacity) Wed Dec 18, 2002 22:19 antrophe at hotmail dot com

As an activist in the CFE, who has worked closely with the SY branch in UCD, the charges leveled at them here are a tad ridiculous and are just symptomatic of a problem which has emerged with Indymedia here. The IMC is a media outlet for 'the creation of radical, accurate, and passionate tellings of truth.' It is not a discussion board for some Irish activist clique and those on its periphery. If people are going to abuse this facility for the sake of cheap pot shots at others on the left, then could they please kindly piss off. If you have problems with the activity of SY in the CFE then i suggest you get involved in the campaign, the more the merrier, and raise your criticism at our meetings. While constructive comments are always welcome, you have no right to level slander at anybody who has dedicated a lot of personal time to building a grass roots student organisation in very difficult circumstances.

Rather than abusing indymedia, please raise your criticisms in the CFE forum http://www.freeeducation.cjb.net or on our mailing list [email protected] Alternatively wait untill the first meeting after xmas.

by John Thu Dec 19, 2002 01:45

Why were you not out with the lads and lassies showing some solidarity?
A little less conversation and a little more action-as the song goes- I went out with the strikers and they want more people to get involved, raise their plight in your union, inform people of their struggle, embarris the Union officials planning a partnership deal when workers are on strike for union recognition, write a letter to the papers or ignore all the above and do something more imaginative, but do SOMETHING!

by HG - SP Thu Dec 19, 2002 16:49

Pat C you were never called a fascist by anyone in the SP. If you have lets see the article?

by Pat C Fri Dec 20, 2002 14:30

I really do wonder, I have respect for Joe, Clare, Dermot, Denis Keane, Micheal O'Brien and some other SP members who are real Socialists and genuinely want to work with other people in campaigns.

My experience on indymedia is that the SP regulars here would with a naked sectarian hatredattack any article or comment from a Republican or Republican Socialist, or indeed any opinion they didnt agree with. (They seem to have calmed down now; but strangely enough a new bunch of anonymous posters carry out the same attacks.)

I have nothing but contempt for these people. I didnt seek a flame war with them; it should be possible for me to disagree with the Sps views on the National Question without them calling me a "Fascist", "Catholic Nationalist", "Nationalist", "Pat Catholic" etc etc etc.

All of these slurs were posted by SP members in various threads on indymedia.ie in the recent past. I'm not going to seek it out for you.

The guy who called me a Fascist later withdrew it, but the rest of the abuse continued (also directed at other Republican Socialists). What is really amusing is the outraged reactions of SP members when Republican Socialists retaliated and characterised the SP as loyalists. There is only so much abuse people will take before they strike back.

Republican Socialists are not "Nationalists" and will not refer to the SP as "Loyalists" provided the SP cop themselves on.

I have worked with SP members in many campaigns

by Pat C Fri Dec 20, 2002 14:34

I have worked with SP members in many campaigns and have not encountered the ignorance and hostility which seems to endemic to the SP members who are indy regulars.

I do not believe that these fools are representative of the SP as a whole.