Israeli death toll rises

by MG Fri Nov 29, 2002 09:45

The death toll was actually eight, because the two gunmen, both in their 20s, were also shot dead by armed Israelis. Obviously you only see one side as victims.

Also, a further 18 people were made homeless by Israeli terrorists who blew up the homes of the two gunmen this morning.

The Palestinian Authority has unreservedly condemned the shooting at the Likud polling station. Israel has never condemned the killing of innocent Palestinians by its terrorist soldiers.

Victory to the Intifada!

by Joe H Fri Nov 29, 2002 10:54

"Victory to the Intifada!"???

It's easy to say that from your nice comfortable middle-class job in Ireland. You haven't had your kid's limbs blown off by a suicide bomber. Why don't you just say "Victory to the RIRA!" and be done with it. Fool.

by pat c Fri Nov 29, 2002 11:06

joe h

your israeli soldiers mow down stone throweing children from the safety of your tanks.

your tanks demolish buildings which have elderly & disabled people still inside them.

your brave pilots rain rockets and napalm down on schools & hospitals.

the palestinian commandos have no tanks or jets. they know they face death when they bring the war to the enemy.

by MG Fri Nov 29, 2002 11:09

I suppose you're over there on the frontlines, are you? Do you even know what "Intifada" means? Do you think Ireland/Palestine deserves to be ruled by Britain/Israel just because the Real IRA/al-Aqsa Martyrs killed innocent people? Please answer.

And for the record, I'll say it again:

VICTORY TO THE INTIFADA.

by Joe H Fri Nov 29, 2002 11:52

They *directly* target innocent civilians. They *intend* to kill innocent civilians. There is no excuse.

NB: I apply the same logic to the IDF, when they murder innocent civilians.

However, this is Indymedia, not a Pro-IDF site. You people support the Intifada, you poeple support the murder of children on their way to school, you people support the murder of civilians. And you rationalise it all with a load of socialist mumbo-jumbo about solidary and the Intifada. Time to grow up and stop supporting murder, simply because you think it's the trendy thing to do.

by pat c Fri Nov 29, 2002 12:04

i have consistently condemned attacks on israeli civilians & children. children can never be legitimate targets.

however you should not be surpriesd if, in desperation, the palestinians bring the war to israel.

by MG Fri Nov 29, 2002 12:19

You still haven't answered my question.

The Palestinian cause is a just cause. They are fighting for their freedom from Israeli oppression. I never said I supported the murder of innocent civilians, but I do support the Intifada, which is an uprising by the Palestinian people against Israeli state terrorism.

Just because Hamas, Islamic Jihad, et al are murdering innocent civilians, does not mean that the Intifada is wrong. This same logic applies to the Irish situation. Just because the IRA blew up innocent people does not mean that the Irish rebellion against British rule was wrong.

So, for the third time today:

VICTORY TO THE INTIFADA.

by Finghin - SP Fri Nov 29, 2002 16:55

Intifada means roughly 'peoples struggle'. But the actions of these terrorist groups are in no way a people's struggle. These gunmen see no role for the masses of Palestine in their struggle for independence, they see themselves as the vehical for social change.

It is wrong to say 'victory to the intifada' in a reply to a post that is reprting the death of innocent israeli workers. By doing so you are saying that these terrorist actions are legitimate or part of a people's struggle.

These tactics of individual terrorism are completley counter productive. They deliberatly targe innocent Israeli workers going about their daily business. The support of ordinary Israelis is crucial in the struggle of the Palestinian people, by using terrorist tactics they are simply driving the Israeli people into the hands of extremists like Sharon.

by Pat c Fri Nov 29, 2002 17:11

it is perfectly understandable that palestinian commanos should strike back in the state of israel. it is unfortunate when their attacks result in civilian casualties.

but it is appalling that fool finghin should concentrate on condemning the reactive violence of the palestinians. the israeli state terror comes second to him. after all to him the israeli army are "workers in uniform". but palestinians are "individual terrorists".

victory to the palestinian resistance!

All adult settlers in the occupied territories are armed and function as a proto-fascist militia which is attempting to ethnically cleanse the palestinians.

Therefore all adult settlers in the Occupied Territories are legitimate targets.

the palestinians also have the right to strike back at political and military targets inside the state of israel.

by IMC Dalek Fri Nov 29, 2002 17:35

Over the last few months hundreds of Palestinian civilians have been mown down by the Israelis but Finghin could never find the time to comment on postings about these.

Its only when the Palestinians strike back (in an unwise manner) that Finghin finds the time to post a comment. Attacking the Palestinian Resistance.

The SP support Loyalism, the British Army and Zionism. They dont seem to be doing a lot to build for either of the Anti War Demos.(After all US troops are 'Workers in Uniform'.

Maybe the SP offices would be a good place to have a picket.

by Finghin - SP Fri Nov 29, 2002 17:38

"it is perfectly understandable that palestinian commanos should strike back in the state of israel"

I would agree, but the suicide bombers are not attacking the Israeli state they are attacking ordinary Israeli civilians.

"but it is appalling that fool finghin should concentrate on condemning the reactive violence of the palestinians. the israeli state terror comes second to him. "

Firstly I would like it if you would not descend to personal name calling on indymedia. I have never stooped to that level of calling you names.

I was condeming the terrorist tactics first because people on this thread were cheering on the suicide bombers and painting them as some knid of 'freedom fighters'. The fact is that I also condemn Israeli state terror.

You seem to misunderstand the term 'workers in uniform'. We use this term when refering to the army at a revolutionary period. The army are made up of people from ordianry working class backgrounds, and in a revolutionary period some of their sections could be won over to the side of the workers. It is not used by us when refering to the IDF or the Paras in Bloody Sunday.

Why do you deliberatly distort our position? Is it something personal against the SP?

by Paul S Fri Nov 29, 2002 17:42

"is unfortunate when their attacks result in civilian casualties."

You stupid gimp, don't you see that civilians will always be the main victims in such a struggle. Especially as they are often the specific target.

"all adult settlers in the Occupied Territories are legitimate targets"

You have the same morality as the Real IRA, is a kid aged 4 in the occupied territories a "legitimate target" or collateral damage (a phrase I'm sure you love")

Intifida = terrorism = futile death = Israeli military response = no solution = no Palsetinian state

In the same way that the IRA had to realise that they weren't going to bomb britain into a united Ireland, the Palestinians have to realise the same. Israel has shown that it can be generous at the negotiating table before, this is the ONLY way forward. The Intifida will never succeed..FACT.

Pat your no more than a very agressive nationalist (a bit like the far right really)

by pat c Fri Nov 29, 2002 17:55

i have said children can never be legitimaqte targets.

the adult settlers however are all armed & form a proto-fascist militia which ethnically cleanses palestinians.

i am a socialist republican & a militant anti fascist.

by Pat g Fri Nov 29, 2002 17:59

You are NOT socialist
You are not anti fascist, you don't even know what a fascist is.

by pat c Fri Nov 29, 2002 18:06

"I would agree, but the suicide bombers are not attacking the Israeli state they are attacking ordinary Israeli civilians."

i have said in numerous occasions that i oppose attacks on civilians. why are YOU distorting my views?

"Firstly I would like it if you would not descend to personal name calling on indymedia. I have never stooped to that level of calling you names."

yes you have, you have called me a nationalist, other sp members have called me a fascist. are you a pathological liar?

"I was condeming the terrorist tactics first because people on this thread were cheering on the suicide bombers and painting them as some knid of 'freedom fighters'. The fact is that I also condemn Israeli state terror."

who was cheering on the suicide bombers? everyone was critical of them . your priority is obviously to attack the reactive violence of the oppressed.

"You seem to misunderstand the term 'workers in uniform'. We use this term when refering to the army at a revolutionary period. The army are made up of people from ordianry working class backgrounds, and in a revolutionary period some of their sections could be won over to the side of the workers. It is not used by us when refering to the IDF or the Paras in Bloody Sunday."

in recent debates on indy, other members of the sp have referred to brit soldiers as workers in uniform. i find it hard to believe that you missed this.

"Why do you deliberatly distort our position?"

i dont.

why do you support the orange order in their desire to march through areas where they are not wanted?

"Is it something personal against the SP?"

no its political disagreements.

this question is a bit rich when i have been called a fascist, a catholic nationalist etc by your members.

do you have a personal grudge against me?

i have respect for some sp members. i have nothing but contempt for the sp fools on indy.

by pat c Fri Nov 29, 2002 18:10

i have proved my socialist & anti fascist credentials on many occasions.

how many palestinian children have you killed?

by Jim G Sat Nov 30, 2002 01:20

From what I can see, Pat c. you are a fucking loon.

by hunter - pfln Sat Nov 30, 2002 16:41

pat c - would you please define what you mean by 'civillian'? you say that civillians are never legitimate targets. but then you say that the settlers (who i agree have no right to be there) are legitimate targets. so they lose their status as civillians? because they are armed? well my uncle (in the uk) has a rifle, does that mean that he is a legitimate target for someone pissed off at the british state? interesting logic.

why are the militant palestinian groups not democratically accounatble to the people they pruport to represent?

all the violence in the world wont solve the middle east problem - unless the US simply vaporise all the palestinians that is.

by Des Sat Nov 30, 2002 19:43

The "settlers" are not civilians, they are heavily armed and have committed numerous crimes against the Palestinian population. They are illegally occuping the land of another country and should not be surprised that the people they are attempting to ethnically cleanse fight back.

by repost Sun Dec 01, 2002 16:24

This is BEFORE any Palestinian suicide bombing in infitada II!

Deaths in Sept., 2000: Palestinian 19 ; Israeli 1
Deaths in Oct., 2000: Palestinian 130; Israeli 11

www.btselem.org