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Thursday November 28, 2002 16:04
by OK - SYUCD
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Jump To Comment: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40My calculations, from my recollection of UCD student numbers, is that turnout was less than 20%.
The real message from the referendum is that student don't really give a bollox. Such a derisory turnout cannot be seen as a mandate for anything except perhaps that student politicos should leave the apathetic alone........roight.
The turnout was 14.45%
I think this is due to a few reasons. Firstly I think that if the "No" campaign faought the camapign more from the left, ie criticising the tameness of the USI leadership on fees, then there would have been a higher turnout and a higher No vote.
In a few lectures I was in, when a USI hack did a lecture address some students were hostile to them for being inactive on the fees issue. The mood of students is against fees and against the UCDSU and USI leaderships.
And secondly many students are not aware of where to vote. polling stations can be in some strange places! and there is not really too much publicity about how and where to vote.
Nevertheless, the vote should be interpreted as a mandate to the USI leadership to step up the fight on fees.
- secondly many students are not aware of where to vote. polling stations can be in some strange places
Really? When I was a student there (back when we had to take notes with a chisel, hunt and kill our own food, etc) the polling stations were all fairly obvious. The Arts/Commerce block is about the only place big enough to _have_ strange places, let alone put polling stations there.
That said, 15% isn't _that_ low for a UCDSU referendum. There are a lot of faculties in UCD, and many of them don't see why they should care about the SU.
"Many students are not aware of where to vote. polling stations can be in some strange places!"
Polling stations in UCD are in every faculty, usually in the most obvious place. It's piss easy to vote, no need to travel to a local school, no need to remember your voting card, and not only that but canvassing is intense right up to polling day, lecture addresses tell 1000s of student on the day to take 5 mins and register their vote. Yet the vast majority simply couldn't be arsed. Sad, but true. They are not left wing, they don't care about politics and are thus quietly content with the status quo (although they probably won't admit it - not very cool).
Having spent many years in the institution I never once came across anyone who couldn't vote because of an inabiltiy to find the polling station. Some student are pretty thick, but I haven't met many that are quite that thick.
The point that the No campaign should have attacked from the left is just self-serving speculation with no basis in fact.
The result is as much of an insult to USI as it is a victory. There're simply irrelevant to most people.
well here it is, the posters for both "campaigns", were in the imortal words of johnny rotten bollox. To begin with there was no date advertised anywhere to actually let you know around campus when the vote was actually taking place. Secondly, there was no advertised list of where you could vote, so without knowing when or where this referendum was to take place where can people go vote. thirdly its true all excuses aside student dont give a rats ass about the usi, they have yet to achieve anything of value for students (and i would love to be told otherwise please id love to know). The grant is still a complete waste of time, where are the mass protests co-ordinated around the country with every college involved...?. Also there is Angus H himself El Presidente of UCD, a little hitler who's arogance is probably second only to that of G.W Bush. An individual of utter uselessness who would rather abuse his secretarial staff, pay below minum wage, and declare the bar in ucd "my bar"...... i await the day of the great egging so angus beware....
...was dead right.
- To begin with there was no date advertised anywhere to actually let you know around campus when the vote was actually taking place.
Was this not on all of the leaflets and posters produced by both sides?
- Secondly, there was no advertised list of where you could vote,
Unless things have changed dramatically in recent years, the polling stations in each faculty are very obvious.
- thirdly its true all excuses aside student dont give a rats ass about the usi ... where are the mass protests co-ordinated around the country with every college involved...?
Okay, I don't want to defend USI too much, because I'm sure they could do more, but you don't get mass protests around the country just by saying they should take place. The reason the turnout was so low was that most students didn't think the vote was relevant to them, one way or another. That's not something that you can change overnight by producing slightly more left-wing leaflets or getting USI to call a couple more demonstrations. Demonstrations (can) have the same problem - people aren't going to go on them if they don't think anything will be achieved. To get people to do something, whether its vote or march, you have to offer a convincing reason why their presence will make a real difference to their situation, and that isn't easy.
talk about giving ammunition to those who might deride the UCD student, are there any results from students in IT's? Is the poll in UCD representative of the 3rd level population? however bad 'real'politics is in this country, student 'politics' is hilarious, didn't RBB go there?
well ray.... then the only thing i can think of, is student antipathy?, is there only real protest, and radical change when students genuinely have it bad. Give it a year or two by that time FF will have burried this country. "Bertue Bertie he's our man if he cant do it no one can" theyll chant through out the country as we sink below our asses. back to the point, how to get people involved show how it effects them, show whats being done leaflets are there to soak up tea spillages, and sometimes the more expensive ones are ok roach material so what then. suggestions?
well googlie, when FF do run the country into the ground, we could grow copious amounts of dope to use up all the expensive flyers............
I don't know if Richard Boyd B ever actually studied at UCD, but he sure as hell hung around the arts block enough. He probably turned most students he met off politics for life. Some vulnerable young girls have been know to fall for his boyish good looks, in a similar fashion to their attraction to the SWP. In both cases they usually grow of it and go on to lead a happy and fulfilling existence.
if there is a University in the Country where the turnout for a referendum or election is greater than 20% name them. Actually at the last election in UL the turnout was 18%. That was on a Wednesday. The turnout the year before was 23% on a Thursday. Thats out of 10'000 students. But taking such factors as hangovers, co-op(work placement), students on erasmus, students who have projects due in the next day, students with mid terms the next day, students who think the SU are all a shower of tossers it might not be that bad;-)
Yeah I would say USI have a chance to take the bull by the horns on the fees issue now. By December 3rd there will have been anti-fees demos in every college & city in Ireland bar Dublin so I think the next move should be quite obvious even to those for whom action doesn't come naturally.
PS: Roll on Shannon!
Were the dates not on the poster or the flyers?, no dates on either campaign posters and dont know about the yes flyers but the no flyers also had no date, so unless you were lucky enough to be in a classroom visited by a usi hack the day before there was no warning of the date ,a situation i am sure aongus was happy with. As to where to vote, well if you dont know when, you arent going to be looking out for where, and there are no lists anywhere. As for lobbyists on the day, we all know they are the one thing guaranteed to stop people voting because they are so annoying. The only reason to vote for either obsolete organisation was to thwart Aongus' bid for power, the next step is to see if we can make him cry by demanding the resignation of out beloved dictator.
Do Socialist Youth support Irish Army recruiting stands in UCD?
The USI leadership is tame on fees?
There have been protests all around the country on the fees issue. Something in the region of 30,000 have come out so far. This was all organised by the "tame" USI leadership. The only reason you haven't seen a big demo yet in Dublin is because it is set to be the finale of our big mass demos.
The Dept of Education occupation was organised by the same "tame" leadership you're complaining about.
And before you ask, yes there are more very militant events (occupations etc) in the works, but they were not intended to happen until after the Mass Demos.
Perhaps a bit of examination of some relevant facts would be in order.
Fianna Fail in UCD have been able to use the SYs support of the Orange Order in the North to turn people off Demos. Unfortunate but effective.
Whats more unfortunate is the fact that SY-UCD support the Orange Order Marchs. You wont find any Students Union in the North which supports this. The SY up there line up with the DUP and OUP.
SY is an albatross around the neck of the Students Union.
there are 20000 students, of which id say 5-10 thousand are around of which id say 3000 give a fuck , of whick 2000 get to vote due to other factors
usi leadership should name themselves on the newswire
We do not support the Orange Order. They are a reactionary groups of bigots.
However they are not fascists and thereofre have a right to march.
Communities also have the right to oppose these bigots. There should be local negiotiations on the route of marches.
On the USI, The USI only did the occupation of the Dapt of Education because of the anger that was evident after the CFE blockade of Brian Lenihan.
THEY ARE ALWAYS WILLING TO NAME AND LIBEL THEIR OPPONENTS.
12 people including 3 children have been killed by loyalists to advance their "RIGHT" to march down the Garvaghy Road.
How can you still talk in terms of negotiations after this? How anyone could support the Orange march and still have the neck to call thermselves Socialist is beyond me.
After the 3 Quinn brothers were burned to death by loyalists, eeven some hardline loyalists withdrew their support for the Portadown Orangemen. But, along with the LVF, the SP stiil think the Orange Order should be allowed to march down the Garvaghy Road.
By your continued support for the "RIGHT" of the march to go down the Road, you share responsibility for those deaths.
I'm sick of these lies on indymedia regarding the SP and the natioanl question. I'm going to address it anyway.
SY/SP do not support the recruitment of any capitalist army/police force on a university campus. Whether they be the British army or the Irish army.
We do not support the Orange Order in any way. The Orange Order are a right wing reactionary bigoted organisation.
But, the Orange Order are not fascists and have the right to march. Fascism is quite a precise phenomen, and can't simply be applied to every right wing bigot going.
Local communities also have the right to be free of sectarian intimidation. The SP support negotiated settlements of disputed marches.
how dare anyone say that people are not coming to college demos beacuse of SY. The fact is that it is members of SY that have been to the forefront in organising these demos. (It wasn't just us of course). Ask anyone that is involved in the left in UCD and they will tell you this.
Why are you saying that I am not using my name?
I always use my real name when putting up postings. I have noticed that many others attacking the SP havn't
No, we did it because it was part of our national campaign strategy which was passed in August.
And have you forgotten the Handcuff event during the summer months?
Get your facts straight and stop painting everyone with the same convenient brush.
In fairness I reckon the USI were puched into doing something after the massive media coverage the CFE got at the Lenihan blockade.
Yes USI have done quite alot, but could it have done more? I don't know, maybe they could have..
The fact remains that USI is basically a training ground for careerist polititians in the main political parties.
It is not democratic, who elects the USI officers? A clique of hacks elect another clique of hacks, that's the reality. Why don't students be allowed to directly elect delegates to USI conferences or even directly elect the President of USI?
In fairness, you're wrong. We had handcuffing events over the summer months and the real impetus for doing the occupation that particular day was the report in the Irish Times the previous day saying full fees may be returning after all.
Who elects USI officer board? Delegates from each college in the country, or "hacks" as you prefer. Who elects the hacks? Students on the ground (they elected Aonghus after all).
What's to be learned from this?
That the left has to organise a bit better. If it was, the "hacks" you despise would be a thing of the past!
As regards careerist hacks, come on for fucks sake, stop tarring everyone with the same brush!
That occupation was the third time I was involved in a sit in in a Government Building. Stuff like that (and the garda record that goes with it) is certainly not going to benefit my career.
Stop engaging in easy sloganising and start organising a bit better.
'how dare anyone say that people are not coming to college demos beacuse of SY.'
How dare we! Here it is yet again, the SP dont believe anyone has the right to criticise them. Over the past couple of weeks, Finghin and the other SP hacks get outraged whenever anyone dares to contradict them.
They have even called it spam and suggested that opposition to them be deleted. They want to bring section 31 on to indy.
What would these bastards be like if they controlled UCDSU? FF would be welcomed back with open arms. They bring Socialism into disrepute.
'Local communities also have the right to be free of sectarian intimidation. The SP support negotiated settlements of disputed marches.'
You havent answered about the 12 deaths. How could anyone support an Orange March after loyalists have murdered 12 people to get the march down the road?
You are a loyalist scumbag.
The SY are turning people off demos.
I never said that posting critisising the SP should be deleted.
"What would these bastards be like if they controlled UCDSU? FF would be welcomed back with open arms. They bring Socialism into disrepute"
It seems the red scare has started already and the union election havn't even started. The most disturbing thing is that it seems not to be coming from the right wing but from the left. Who exactly are you? If you have some problems with SY/SP why don't you give your name?
So you seem to think that the SP would bring socialism into disripute if we had any SU positions. Has the SP ever brought Socialism into disripute when we took positions? Has Joe Higgins or Clare Daly done so? Have the SP brought socialism into disripute when we took positions in the trade unions unions? If you think we have plaese outline it here.
I can think of many sectarian 'left' groupings and parties that bring and are bringing Socilaism into disripute, none of which are the SP.
'The SY are turning people off demos.'
How exactly? It was us that did the bulk of the work in building for those student demos.
Of course we condemn all sectarian attacks.
what cowards are putting up posting saying that SYUCD would bring socialism into disrepute if we win positions in the SU. Why not give your name?
Where have we ever brought socialism into disrepute? It's the red scare starting up. Anf I think finghin is correct when he says it's probably coming from the left, not the right.
How dare you say that SY are turning people off demos? we are the people that put in the hard work in building for demos in UCD. Who printed leaflets and posters? who put up the posters? did the lecture addresses? It was SY members alongside other genuine activists.
ok = oisin kelly
you know, you don't HAVE to respond to everything that's said on indymedia. there's a big big world out there and it's not going to stop turning when some anonymous writer (like me! or pat c! or anyone) criticises the sp.
also, you don't need to be speaking on behalf of the Party every time you come online. if you appeared to have a little bit of independence and didn't jump in feet first to defend the cwi all the time you wouldn't be involved in these arguments crossing twenty articles. ie you didn't have to feel obliged to respond re the branch in queens. you're not the party leader, no one expects you to defend all the members. now, when you try to write about free education stuff, you get it hurled back at you...
"how dare anyone say that people are not coming to college demos beacuse of SY. The fact is that it is members of SY that have been to the forefront in organising these demos. (It wasn't just us of course). Ask anyone that is involved in the left in UCD and they will tell you this."
Oisin, Fighin, I know many students that have been turned off coming to cfe demos because of their perception that what ye refer to as being at the forefront of organising, they saw as hijacking.
I'm not trying to be sectarian or attack you, but the basic fact remains that you are wrong and have isolated many normal students in UCD from joining the fight against fees.
On the march that the motorway was "occupied", i overheard many students getting fed up with sy activists and leaving the march. Thats a simple fact. Numbers on cfe demos havent been as large since. I also know for a fact of one student who would not come to the cfe fund raiser in the bar because they no longer supported cfe because they claimed it was dominated by socialist youth.
I don't personally agree with these statements, but these are ordinary students being pushed away from the fees movement by what they see as hijacking. I suggest that SY use a bit of tact and we all work together to help the fight grow rather than push any students away.
Everyone that is involved in the CFE know that the CFE is not a SY front. By no means do SY make all the decisions. And we really are not that prominent at the demos.
We've sold our paper at one demo and have had a few placards at the rest. This is compared to the Labour Party that had a large banner at the front of the last demo and the SWSS that flooded the demos with placards. We certainly are in no way sectarian towards CFE by putting our own organisation before building CFE.
I accept that some students may have been turned off by some militant action, but I think they were a minority and it was the actions not SY that turned them off.
You named me, will you name yourself?!
I dont just come online to defned "the line" of the CWI. I go online, and if I see something I wanna comment on, I do. What's wrong with that?
Obviously if my party is attacked, I'm going to defend our positions. I happen to agree with the SP positions and programme, I'm just some mindless party hack.
Unlike yourself I'm not anti-party. I think that we need organisations if we want to change things. We need political parties!
Well at least they got 14%. In TCD a few weeks ago where the same question was put only 8% turned out to vote, student apathy rains on my friends because students are becoming comfortable in their right wing FF politics as supposrted by daddy and the credit card. Time for real student action, up the revolution.
All this how dare you stuff whenever someone queries SY is getting to be a bit much. Has no one got the right to criticise them? What would they be like if they controlled UCDSU publications?
The ordinary students who may be halfway radical (me and my mates and many more) do not want a party line crammed down our throats. We will turn out if we are motivated to do so not because SY oreder us to march. We would be better roused from apathy if the SY didn't carry on like born again Christians, who seem to think anyone who disagrees with them is in league with Satan.
People are turned off by Gospel Revivalist type preaching and FF have succeeded in quietly making SYs views on the Northern troubles an issue. If there is to be a united progreessive slate then the slate must be clear where it stands about the SY views on the Orange Order marching up the Garvaghy road, opposing a memorial for Pat Finucane and British Army recruitment in Queens. If they are not sorted out in advance, FF will make electoral hay out of them.
"Has no one got the right to criticise them? What would they be like if they controlled UCDSU publications?"
Everyone has the right to critise us. But the criticisms should be based on reality. You raise the question of UCDSU publications. why? what's this got to do with it! Anyway there's editorial independence for SU publications and college papers, and long may it stay that way.
"do not want a party line crammed down our throats.... We would be better roused from apathy if the SY didn't carry on like born again Christians..."
We are not pushing any party line. The fact is that we have a particular outlook on events, and we have a certain analysis. We're involved in a wide range of activity. Our views we put forward comes from experience and from our analysis of the situation. It's not a 'party line'. Do you honestly think that the SP NEC sits around all day thinking about a 'line' for UCD!
"....FF have succeeded in quietly making SYs views on the Northern troubles an issue."
Have they!!!??? I never heard this one before. I dont think that FF know our northern policy. And I dont think you do either. We're a marxist party, we have a marxist approach and analysis to the national question.
We do not support Orange Order marching down any road, we do say that the OO have a right to march, as they are not fascists. We also support the right of communities to live free from sectarian intimidation.
The situation in QUB has been dealt with in other threads. All I'll say here is that you obviously didn't read the contributions of members and supporters of the SP.
"If there is to be a united progreessive slate then the slate must be clear where it stands about the SY views...... If they are not sorted out in advance, FF will make electoral hay out of them."
This is the first I've heard of a "united progressive slate". I presume for sabat elections. We're open to discussing this, talk to us in person, I dont think that Indymedia is the best forum. SYs views and opinions are not something that will be 'sorted out' or held to account by others. Join us if you want to change our policies.
You have just confirmed my worst nightmares, you really dont believe anyone has the right to criticise you. You claim thjat CFE is a broad campaign but now you say effectively you will be standing as SY.
I dont want to join you, I want to see FF beaten. You just want to replace them with another dictatorship.
Of course people have the right to critisise SY.
CFE is a broad campaign, it is not controlled by SY.
Socialist Party members have postions in many unions as well as in county councils and a TD. Have we ever abused these positions? The answer is clearly no. So why do you think that would be different if a SY member had a postion in the UCDSU.
Whoever Ger is you should reveal your name, why don't you bring these issues up with us or at a CFe meeting? surely that is the best forum for such a discussion.
"Ger",
I presume you are active in the CFE. If you are why are you not raising this with SY members. If you are active in CFE you will know that the CFE is not controlled by SY. If anything Labour have more of an influence! why not attack them?
You raise a number of questions about the SU elections. There has not been a debate in the CFE about the Sabat elections. No other people or groups have approached us about a joint platform. We are open to it. Why not raise this with SY in UCD, Indymedia is not the correct forum.
Currently in SY we discussing possibly running for an SU position, I dont think that's a major secret. But we have not come to any decisions yet, and we're open to possible alliances etc.
And why dont you name yourself?