SWP to stand in Dublin North against Calre Daly (SP)

by Gino - SWP Thu Apr 11, 2002 12:23 swp at clubi dot ie

Finghin, comrade,

sorry for any confusion here, if you read the article further, you will see that Richie is actually standing in Dublin North Central and NOT in Dublin North. Don't get excited over absolutely nothing!! It was a genuine editorial mistake by our newspaper staff.

For example, in Cork the party is running in Cork South Central and would never consider running against Mike Barry, your party candidate in Cork North Central and in fact are calling for a No.1 vote for him informally if we meet people from the northside of the city during our modest campaign. And yes, before it is bought up, we did run against a SP candidate, Martin Walsh in Dublin South Central during the 1997 election and this was a mistake for both parties, as at that time we had not checked the situation out with the SP.

I think the matter is closed,

regards

Gino
Cork SWP

by Finghin Thu Apr 11, 2002 13:27

Nice to hear that it is just an editorial mistake. I think that standing in Dublin North would of course have been a major mistake. Clare Daly has a very good chance of being elected, but as I have said she will need every vote. If the SWP were standing in Dublin Norht this would have taken votes from her, even if you advocated a transfer to Clare Daly.

by Gino - SWP Thu Apr 11, 2002 13:35 corkswp at yahoo dot com

It seems that you still disbelieve us in some way? I think you can take it from me as an SWP activist that these mistakes of the past will not be repeated again. Best of luck to Clare Daly and all the other socialist candidates from both our parties.

by aunty party Thu Apr 11, 2002 13:46

are all left parties trained to say "sectarian" from birth?

time to start relaxing, time to stop flying off the handle. none of the people who talk tough here are leaders. yeah. the friend of the car driver from ucd (cutting edge of the revolution, certainly) demands that the swp withdraw their candidate. i can just imagine an emergency international meeting of the IS being called. "what are we gonna do? fingin demanded that we withdraw".

saying "i demand that this sectarian attack by (fill in your apparent opponent) cease at once" is just really really childish. the swp are just as bad.

and then we wonder why the irish left wing parties never get anywhere...

by Finghin Thu Apr 11, 2002 13:57

I do believe you, I'm sure it was a printing mistake these things happen. He did stand in Dublin North Central last time, that's why I was suprised it said he was standing in Dublin North.

by Finghin Thu Apr 11, 2002 14:02

I aknowledge that UCD is not the cutting edge of the revolution, that is why SY's work in UCd is fairly minimal unlike the SWP who actually believe that Students are the most revolutionary section in society. BTW I am not a car owner or driver, I am not even that active in MIJAG, I only repost the odd emails.
I wouldn't be surpirised if the IS did call a meeting to discuss this, all you'd have to do is ring up London, and that would constitute a world congress.
Please forgive my sectarianism, sometimes I can't help it.

by Michael Ronan O'Connell - Socialist Workers Party Thu Apr 11, 2002 14:22 michaeloconnell2001 at yahoo dot com

Good luck Clare Daly!

Good luck Finighin!

Good luck the Socialist Party!

Good luck the Socialist Workers Party!

LONG LIVE SOCIALISM!

MAY CAPATALISM DIE IN THE JUNGLE FROM WHERE WHENCE IT CAME! BEFORE IT KILLS ANY MORE OF US WHO HAVE EVOLVED FROM THAT VERY JUNGLE.....

by Joeboy - IST Thu Apr 11, 2002 15:41

outrageous!

by Paul Kinsella - Globalise Resistance Thu Apr 11, 2002 15:47 paulkinsella53 at yahoo dot com 53 Lorcan Grove, Santry, Dublin 9, Eire 087 - 9748511

I agree with the comments from Michael O'Connell and Aunty Party. This vicious and really needless squabbling between the various Left Parties does none of us any good at the end of the day. You'se have all mentioned about supporting Clare Daly in Dublin North and Richie Browne in Dublin North Central and about not splitting the Left vote in these 2 areas and the same for Cork and Waterford and elsewhere around the Country, such as Tipperary, where the Left either has a very real chance of gaining a seat or else building on the gains they've already made, and all of this I fully support. But coming back to the 2 Northside Dublin Constituencies that I know the best - my own of Dublin North Central and Dublin North, you'se forget to mention that they are also a couple of excellent Independent Candidates running in both Constituencies. For example in my own area we have Independent Councillor Finian McGrath, who's running on the Health Alliance ticket. Finian McGrath has an excellent track record of working for the people. For example when that Bin Tax was first forced onto the people of Dublin, Finian was one of only 2 Councillors (Tony Gregory was the other) on Dublin City Council who wanted a roll call of all those Councillors who voted for this hated Double Tax, but of course all of the other Councillors who were members of Politicial Parties voted down Finian's demand for a roll call vote. Plus Finian has an excellent track record of working with, and for people with disabilities, and he has also constantly opposed that hideous Dublin Port Access Tunnel. In Dublin North we have Independent Ciaran Goulding also running on the Health Alliance platform. Again like Finian McGrath Ciaran Goulding has an excellent track record of working with, and for people with disabilities and he has previously run as an Independent Candidate for the European Elections.

by sure shot Thu Apr 11, 2002 16:25

Such a petty waste of time; no wonder the party's with which ye are affiliated are going nowhere fast. Such petty (and blind) accusations, and subsequent defences of car ownership etc is a ridiculous waste of time. Must the left be a collection of hair splitting whiners? Does common interest or solidarity interest nobody?

by Finghin Thu Apr 11, 2002 17:00

Please forgive my sectarianism, as I have said I just can't help it sometimes!!
Please don't take it seriously.

Good point Paul, although I would not agree theoretically with people such as Finian McGrath, Tony Gregory, Séamus Healy or the Health Alliance, I would consider voting for these people. They represent genuine working class communities and concerns, their election could act as a catalyst to mobilse the working class.
We need to build a new mass workers' party in Ireland to fight capitalism. Any future mass workers party will be made up of individuals and groups that are mentioned above.

by Michael Ronan O'Connell - SWP Thu Apr 11, 2002 18:16 michaeloconnell2001 at yahoo dot com

"We need to build a new mass workers' party in Ireland to fight capitalism. Any future mass workers party will be made up of individuals and groups that are mentioned above."

Yup, I TOTALLY concur with that. Parties will probably always want to remain autonomous to a fair degree, and left wing parties will not have all the EXACT same ideologies, but some sort of mass workers alliance needs to be created to galvanize our strength and really create a really stong left-wing movement - FG and the PD's are going - a strong left-wing movement could make the "so-called" labour party void - whatever people's view of SF is, they do have very good socialist polices - which only leaves one more - FF - and if all of what I've said happens - FF's long held stranglehold on Irish politics and on the lives of Irish people will be gone.

Peace, Equality & Happinness Bretherns,

Michael.

by My god its full of assholes Thu Apr 11, 2002 23:46

You know, the party, nah, nah, nah, blah, blah, blah, power, power, power, power, gimme power, we'll be your leaders, you cant think for yourself, bah, your all sheep, bah, fuck you guys you aint getting any vote here!!! We're not sheep get up off your knees fuck the party hacks!

by path still in exile Fri Apr 12, 2002 03:18

think it was sartre who said 'elections are a trap for fools'. what if they gave an election and nobody came? we'll find out pretty soon..

(with apologies to b. black for blatant plagiarism)

by Finghin - Socialist Youth Fri Apr 12, 2002 12:03 finghink at hotmail dot com

I am surprised to see that you said this about SF
"they (Sinn Fein) do have very good socialist polices "

SF are by no means a socialist party, they may have a degree of a working class base but are very much in the hands of big business. Just look at the way that Gerry Adams etc are in the White House every St Patricks day, look at their 'Cairde Sinn Fein' $1000 a plate dinners!
Ultimatly SF are just the same as FF, FG and Labour.
Just look at their record in the North, where they do have a degree of power. Their Health minister has overseen and pushed through the closing of hospitals. Mc Guinness has fought the term time workers when he cut back on their conditions, he has also brought Privitisation into schools through PPP/PFI.

They are also a sectarian party, they act against workers unity in the north. They foster and engage in politics that is communal and divisive.

Don't be mislead by the media portraying them as being 'radical' they quite clearly are not.

As for the Labour Party, they are a bourgeois party, they no longer have any base amongst the working class. They have totally betrayed working people and offer NO alternative whatsoever. That is why we need to build a new mass workers party. I think that people will lose all illusions when they see Labour going into government with FF and implementing highly anti worker measures and cutting back further on our living standards, which is inevitable as we head into recession. In Britain this is beginning to happen, people are disillusioned with Tory Blair (sic) and his cronies and the unions are beginning to fight back.

by Justin - Sinn Fein Atha Cliath Fri Apr 12, 2002 12:36 dublinsfpro at hotmail dot com

To start off with the basics, Sinn Féin is a socialist party. I don't deny the SWP and the SP are socialists and would always give a preference to either of those two parties and wish them well in any constituencies they're standing where we are not. You might not agree with our policies. You might not agree with our politics but Sinn Féin is a revolutionary republican party which is part of a movement only now coming to an armed period of conflict as an element of that revolutionary process. Quite frankly, where were you guys when this was going on?

I think the SP and the SWP need to focus a little less on us and a little more on what they believe, and what they are putting forward as an alternative. Reading the articles critical of SF in the Voice or the SWP paper is often entertaining and occasionally thought-provoking for republicans, but this obsession with us is a little disconcerting and, dare I say it, a little sad.

As for PFI in the North. Yeah, we're implementing it and no, we're not happy about it. But in the North we have no tax raising ability. It's either a school/hospital with PFI or there's no school/hospital. The options are, to say the least, limited.

Lastly, we're a working class party with massive support in working class areas. We have a base, a radicalised and politicised base in parts that other parties can only dream of. We don't need to be told how to run it. We're doing very well thanks

by Finghin - Socialist Youth Fri Apr 12, 2002 13:10 info at syucd dot cjb dot net

Sinn Fein is a right wing capitalist party that has to give an illusion of being socialist due to its base in working class communities.

Sinn Féin are riddled with contradictions because of this fundamental conflict between their big business reality and their radical image. For example in Sligo you voted for the Bin Tax in exchange for a the mayors position, while in Dublin you oppose the tax. How can you justify this?

Your party's attitude to the Hayes Report is also interesting. As I am sure you know the Hayes Report recommeneded the closure of Omagh hospital and the retention of Enniskillen hospital. In Enniskillen you support the report in Omagh you oppose it. Surely you should oppose all cutbacks in public services, not just oppose it for cynical electoral reasons.

If you're a socialist party why did Martin McGuiness cut back on the conditions of term time workers by putting them on the dole? Why if you are socialist was McGuinness voted 'scrooge of the Year' by low paid workers?

Ho do you justify SF going to America and collecting massive amounts of dollars of rich big businessmen? Can you not see the fundamental contradiction in this? How can you attend a rally in Dublin against US imperialism in Afghanistan or Palestine while you are hob nobbing with supporter of US imperialism at the same time?

The Assembly may not have tax raising powers, but this does not justify the introduction of PPPs. If you were really fundamentally against privitisation you could have used your strong position in the Assembly and among the working class to launch a campaign to fight for more funding and against government cut backs. But you have refused to do so and are content to be faithfull servents of Blairite privitisation.

You ask where were we during the Troubles? We have been active in Ireland North and South for the last 30 or so years. We opposed the entry of the British Army into the north, unlike other groups at the time. We have also always opposed your terrorist tactics, we believe that they are counter productive. It works against workers unity as it drives sections of the Protestant Working class into the hands of the right wing and the loyalist paramilitaries. Terrorist tactics also allow the governments to bring in repressive legislation which is used against genuine campaigners. Terrorism puts no faith in the masses, it fosters the idea that mass action is useless and that people should put their trust in a small group of gunmen which will do all the work of liberation for them. As Marxists we fundamentally opposed the tactics of terrorism that were used by the IRA and supported by SF and others. This cult of the leader that has developed around Adams, I think has its roots in the cult of the gunman that developed in the republican movement.

In the North we stand for genuine workers unity. We are active in the Trade unions and in many communities. It is only through working class unity and socialism that the notional question can be resolved satisfactorily in Ireland.

We are not obsessed with SF, many people have illusions in SF, we are pointing out the reality of your party. That is our duty as genuine revolutionaries. I look forward to your reply.

by Gino - SWP Cork Fri Apr 12, 2002 13:40 corkswp at yahoo dot com

I'm sorry this has started up again but I think each party has its own road to follow (SP/SWP/SF). Each has gone though a political evolution and will continue to do so. Some on the left are obsessed with the SF issue when in fact they are simply growing like the rest of us. If SF do well in the South next month, that will be part of a general anti-establishment vote that will be manifesting itself and should be welcomed. That party has put work in on the ground and deserves the votes they get.

We (SWP) are not obsessed with SF and would not join in the intrigues that are being organized via the media and elsewhere against them. The attacks on SF today remind me somewhat on the attacks on the old Workers Party ten years ago when they were a serious party in the South (the CPSU “letter”, Official IRA stuff, printing fivers etc). Our interest is a farental debate with the socialists with the Republican movement on the way forward for this island to cut things very short.

It’s also unfair to state the “where were you?” line that is a common attack against many southern leftists, our tradition was never part on the militant republican tradition but would have many members from that background. I for one would be from the “Official” Fianna Fail background in Donegal with my members of my grandfathers family involved as TD’s for FF and as members of parties as diverse as SDLP, Official Sinn Fein and Lotta Continua in Italy. I chose my own political path that is why I in the SWP and I am not ashamed of it. You can’t use that line of attack in today’s political conditions.

These questions could cause another 20 contributions and made us look like that famous take on the revolutionary left in the “Life of Brian” so lets try to control ourselves.

Again, best regards to all

Gino

by Michael Ronan O'Connell - Socialist Workers Party Fri Apr 12, 2002 14:23 michaeloconnell2001 at yahoo dot com

Unfortunately only have time to read bits of the above but this all started from my repeat of Finghins comment:-

"We need to build a new mass workers' party in Ireland to fight capitalism. Any future mass workers party will be made up of individuals and groups that are mentioned above."

From this I then made a comment that involved SF and the rest took off.

I say lets concentrate on that quote again from Finghin. And lets concentrate on WHAT WE ALL STAND AGAINST. CAPATALISTM, FF, PD, FG, profiteering at the expense of people's lives and at the expense of the planet. INEQUALITY, JUSTICE etc. etc.

Our lives are short, there is so much to be done, let's concentrate all our efforts and attention on these sorts of things. And lets leave our own philosophical difference to a good ol' debate over a pint!

And in the words of "Gino"

"Best regards to ALL"

Michael.

by Justin - Sinn Fein Atha Cliath Fri Apr 12, 2002 14:56 dublinsfpro at hotmail dot com

Sadly with the end of my student days I don’t have a lot of time to get as into this as I would like so if you want to continue to debate after this, email me. Anyway.

Bin Tax. Sinn Féin policy is to oppose the introduction of Bin Charges. In places where the Charges already exist it is up to the local area to decide in consultation with their constituency and the community they represent. Sligo Sinn Féin made the decision they did and I would recommend contacting them for further information.

McGuinness. Scrooge of the year? When was this election? I don’t recall receiving ballot papers. Who were the other nominations? Did he get a prize? I recall certain newspapers ‘giving’ him the title. That’s hardly the low-paid workers. McGuinness has done very well, and is perceived by the unions there to have done very well in his post despite gratuitous underfunding from the British state.

America. We get money from America. Most actually comes from blue-collar communities though there are, as you pointed out, major fund-raisers attended by big business. And I’m happy to take their money. And I’m happy that republicans are linked to the Palestinian struggle, the Basque struggle, the Cuban struggle and Colombia and opposes the war in Afghanistan. I’m very proud of that. And if American money helps us do that, I’ll take it off them and smile doing it. We also receive money from Westminster and my own job, working for ex POWs is paid for by the Free State. I’m happy to take their money too.

Hayes Report. Links into the McGuinness point. Of course we oppose cuts in public services but we do not have tax raising power in the Six Counties. Nor should it be ignored that we are in a coalition with three right wing parties. I am glad that SF in Omagh opposes the report. I am glad that Sinn Féin activists are fighting to provide an efficient health service.

PPP. You want a campaign against PPP, by all means start one. I’ll even come and bring a placard. We’re not stopping you starting one off. Sinn Féin is fundamentally opposed to privatisation but we are also aware of the reality of the situation we find ourselves in. Running a state with little money, bound by regulations imposed by a foreign power and with three right wing parties impacting on our policies. We have argued against PPP and PFI and we will continue to do so with increased political strength as time goes by.

Troubles. Not even worth getting into it with you. As Gino said in what I thought was a very thoughtful and sensible contribution, it’s almost like being a Stick :) The IRA is a guerrilla army, which fought a war of national liberation. It didn’t win. It happily, did not lose. You’re free to describe it as a terrorist organisation of evil mainulative gunmen but revolutionary change will always be accompanied by arms. Either the use
or the threat of arms.

Lastly, as Michael said, leaving philosophical differences to a debate over a pint might not be a bad idea as, rich Americans aside, we only have one computer here that can connect to the net. I’ll promise not to glass you in the face as the evil, committed to violence Chuck that I am, and you promise not to whip out a copy of Marx and Engels’ Greatest Hits.

by Brian Cahill - Socialist Party Fri Apr 12, 2002 15:22 nigel_irritable at yahoo dot com

Hi Justin

It is important that socialists don't lose track of the fact that Sinn Fein have some very good working class activists in the South, and the Socialist Party works alongside them on various issues. However, that shouldn't stop us from pointing out that Sinn Fein are a capitalist party with no intention of really challenging exploitation.

That is not sectarianism (putting the interests of an organisation over the interests of the workers movement). On the contrary, just concentrating on what we have in common and ignoring that kind of difference would be downright stupid of us.

Justin says "yeah we implement it, but we don't like it" when talking about the privatisation of schools and hospitals in the North. Can you not see that this is the cry of every right wing politician as he or she administers capitalist austerity? We can't make money out of nothing, they squeal, so we'll have to introduce a cut here, a privatisation there. We don't want to, you understand, it's just that we don't have any choice!

But that's the point. You do have a choice. You could use your Assembly positions as a platform to campaign for decent schools and hospitals for all. You could use your electoral machine to build serious grassroots campaigns. But you don't. Instead you administer cuts, help bring in privatisation and fight against the term time workers. I don't care if you make sympathetic we are on your side really faces while you do it.

On the rare occasions where Sinn Fein have got a sniff of power in the South you have been just as quick to bow to the supposedly inevitable logic of administering capitalism.

Sinn Fein voted through the bin tax in Sligo in return for the Mayor's position. Then you voted to raise it again the next year. You cut a deal on Dublin Corporation where half of your councillors didn't show up for crucial votes (I'm sure they both have sick notes) and the other half vote against publically recording who voted for the bin tax there.

You can genuflect all you like towards being "revolutionaries". You can even use the word socialism once in a while, but your actions speak louder. Your $1000 a plate dinners with American businessmen and Congressmen matter. Gerry Adams going to the World Economic Forum to hob nob with the international capitalist elite while Joe Higgins goes to the World Social Forum matters.

I'll skip over your where-were-you-when-we-were-blowing-up-children bluster. I'll even ignore your crassly sectarian (in the religious sense) behaviour in the North for the moment. Your willingness to be the hatchetman for business, bringing in privatisation here, cuts there, and unfair taxes on workers all over, damns your claim to be socialist all by itself.

You have noticed that the Socialist Party's publications deal with Sinn Fein's dishonesty and your real record fairly regularly. Good.

If you like, you can take it as a compliment. It means we think that Sinn Fein are important enough, and poisonous enough, to need serious analysis.

Finghin pointed out that we need a new mass workers party in this country. He's right. We do. There is no political party with a mass membership which fights for working class people.

When the working class creates its party, I am sure that it will include plenty of people with whom I disagree. I am also sure that it won't include the likes of Sinn Fein. Your leaders arses will be playing musical chairs for the Ministerial Mercs with the other capitalist politicians. Your rank and file activists will still be talking about how the latest "compromise" was unpleasant, but you didn't have any choice really. And nobody will be listening.

by Gino - SWP Cork Fri Apr 12, 2002 15:34 corkswp at yahoo dot com

Thanks Justin for response. Just stating what I think. Looking back thought, its lucky that this community of activists, republican or otherwise :), weren’t active in the ‘70’s with the whole Workers Party/IRSP shite (if you read that slanderous book, INLA: Deadly Divisons), I am afraid some of us won’t be talking about the situation today but would pushing up daisies somewhere in the Dublin/Mourne Mountains etc, killed by fellow leftists !! Sad to think of it that way so feel lucky that the gun has been taken out of the equation when it comes to political disagreements.

by Trotsky's A-hole Fri Apr 12, 2002 21:22

This internecine squabbling among the authoritarian left must cease! We can all ice-pick each other after we've achieved power. The thing to do now is to band together and to try and fool people into thinking that voting for us will change anything.

Whatever else happens we must not mention that any and every elected "Socialist" party has either capitulated to the Capitalists (Labour UK, Social Democrats DE etc.) or else has been removed post haste by a coup (Chile (Allende), Venezuela (Chavez)) or has retreated into Stalinism (Cuba).

Catch me voting for you shaggers?!! Not on your nelly.

by Paul Kinsella - Workers Party Supporter (Just about! And in a Strictly Personal capacity!)! Mon Apr 15, 2002 01:49 paulkinsella53 at yahoo dot com 53 Lorcan Grove, Santry, Dublin 9, Eire 087-9748511

Brian Cahill wrote "When the working class creates its party, I am sure that it will include plenty of people with whom I disagree. I am also sure that it won't include the likes of Sinn Fein. Your leaders arses will be playing musical chairs for the Ministerial Mercs with the other capitalist politicians. Your rank and file activists will still be talking about how the latest "compromise" was unpleasant, but you didn't have any choice really. And nobody will be listening."

I don't think that anyone is going to argue that the Sinn Fein leadership have long ago sold out on any pretence of Socialism, Revolution and Radicalism, but what got in my craw was where you said "Your rank and file activists will still be talking about how the latest "compromise" was unpleasant, but you didn't have any choice really." This is downright patronising and extremely insulting to the Sinn Fein grass roots activists and I'm very surprised that no one else has hauled you over the coals about this yet. This also smacks of a high level of middle class snobbery in that you assume that Working Class people are thick and are unable to think for themselves, but unfortunately you're not alone! Many so-called 'Radicals' on the so-called 'Radical Left' think the same because they come from very privileged and comfortable backgrounds. They have to cheek to preach about the Workers and the Poor and the Revolution, yet the half of them have never, ever, ever set foot in, or would never, ever, ever be seen dead in a Local Authority Housing Estate! You should have read the comments from a young, political Working Class lad from Tallaght who wrote a comment about the Anti Bin Tax Protests outside City Hall that he called "The view from the 77A". I noticed that not one of you'se even bothered to respond to his many good and interesting views. Shame on the lot of you! I beginning to think that he is right when he says that a lot of you'se are middle class snobs who just speak down to the downtrodden masses in your posh Dublin 4 'Dort' accents. I think that you owe the ordinary rank and file members of Sinn Fein an apology for your gratuitously offensive remarks about them Brian. Btw As you can see I am a loose supporter of the Worker's Party, so my views would be diametrically opposed to Sinn Fein on many issues!

Btw Brian, is it true as several little birds have told me that you in fact live in the UK and not in Ireland?

by Finghin - Socialist Party Mon Apr 15, 2002 13:02

We do not deny that SF have some genuine activists, I know that they do and we have been involved with them campaigning on many issues over the years. Over the next few years, i think that many of the genuine working class activists in SF will become increasingly dissaffected with their leadership, we may see a significant number becoming less active in SF or even leaving the party as the leadership go more and more into the hands of big business.

SF's support is increasing and are being seen as an alternative by many particularly among a certain layer of youth. An increased vote for SF in the next election will be an indication of a certain 'protest' vote. But SF offers no real alternative, myself and Brian have pointed out the pro capitalist reality of SF leadership, they are by no means Socialists. It is the duty of a revolutionary party to point out the real face of Sinn Fein, not just to brush over our differences and hope they go away as many others do.

Paul, as you know the Socialist Party is a genuine party with a real base among the working class communities, in many unions and among the youth. To dismiss us as a bunch of middle class pseudo intellectuals is totally wrong. Having the correct analysis is crucial to any workers movement, you can't seperate theory from practice. If you look at the history of international working class movements it is littered with defeats which were caused by incorrect analysis and programme. There is more to building a successfull working class party than just having a large number of members.