Dublin Anti war Demo on Saturday, December 7th

by agree Fri Nov 08, 2002 00:59

Out in view of the public is a good thing for dublin people and the media, and also a protest where the planes are is also a good thing. good luck to all on both demos and i would love to go to both so maybe someone could get names on the sat for a bus on the sun.

by Phuq Hedd Fri Nov 08, 2002 01:47

What is the Saturday demo in Dublin supposed to do? I can see that many people may want to go and listen to speeches, that's fine. And there's certainly a point in having a public assembly of people to work up interest in doing something. But at this stage most people in the country probably have an opinion already and will want to do something with it. Presumably all the people that will go to an anti-war demo already agree that the war is a bad thing and don't want it to happen. Going to a demo at this late stage in the game isn't going to stop anything, it's basically an appeal to the government and they've already decided what they're doing: letting USAF planes and troop-carrying aircraft disguised as civilian planes refuel. Even if you look back at the huge demos that attended Vietnam there was little response from the US government (apart from bullets for the protestors) even when the protestors were returned vets. I guess if there are people that don't want to get a bus down to Shannon then it's better than nothing.

The Sunday 8th demo at Shannon aims to take some effective action against the actual breaching of our neutrality. Even with a lack of discussion beforehand about who was going to do what the last Shannon demo was a big success. It would be a shame if people that were opposed to the war and wanted to do something about it were diverted into listening to some political celebrities yacking at them for a couple of hours in the wet. It makes sense for people that don't want to get a bus to Shannon, but maybe there could be some communication between groups. I know the Shannon demonstrations have been happening on different scales for many months now and the last one was huge.

To quote from the "stopthewar" link on the struggle site http://struggle.ws/stopthewar.html [I have no link with the WSM but I think their analysis is spot-on in many cases] :
With most countries near Iraq refusing to provide bases to US warplanes the US will be very dependant on airbases and other facilities in Europe in this war. Bombing raids may be launched off US carriers or via long distance Stealth bombers from bases in the US but a successful war will require the transports of hundreds of thousands of tons of supplies and men via European air bases. Mass demonstrations at these bases that aim to invade the runways can shut this down.

In 'neutral' Ireland the civilian airport at Shannon is being used to re-fuel planes, in particular USAF Hercules transport planes. A small number of activists in Ireland have now invaded the runway on three occasions forcing the cancellation of a Rumsfield press conference , spray painting a USAF Hercules with anti-war slogans and forcing another Hercules to take off before it could be refuelled. These protests have all involved 70 people or less, if the rest of the anti-war movement in Ireland and elsewhere copied these examples it would make the conduct of the war a lot more difficult.

by Brian Cahill - Socialist Party Fri Nov 08, 2002 02:28

PH, I have to disagree with you on this one. All of the actions mentioned above - demonstrations, running on to a runway, spraypainting a plane, etc - are essentially symbolic. Some people may find some of them a bit more action packed and exciting than others but frankly so what?

None of the actions mentioned are likely to stop the war by themselves or to hinder it in any way. Drawing a distinction between "listening to speeches" (bad) and "direct action" (good) is essentially meaningless in this context. All of these actions and tactics are about spreading a message rather than physically acting to hinder the war and that goes just as much for the runway invasions and the spraypainting as for the demonstrations.

So what's the point in having a demonstration? It shows participants, most of whom will not be political activists, that they aren't isolated. It shows non-participants, both enemies and potential friends, that there is a sizeable body of opinion which cares passionately about opposing the war. It gives marchers a chance to hear socialist/pacifist/liberal/anarchist/whatever analyses of the reasons for war. It may even get some media attention. Demonstrations, rallies and public meetings help us to get better organised and to raise morale. While I can certainly understand that marching can feel routine or even boring to those of us who are relatively experienced activists, that simply doesn't apply to the vast bulk of people on any major march.

Activities like the spraypainting of warplanes have no more direct impact on the American warmachine than the much derided "listening to speeches". They are useful not because they fall into the category of "direct action" but because they provide more ways of spreading our message.

So we get back to the question of how Irish people can damage the Anglo-American wardrive. The answer is to build a mass movement so big and so strong that it terrifies our wretched government and forces it to drop its assistance entirely. Our tactics have to be evaluated in terms of how they help us move towards that goal.

So yes, more spraypainting warplanes (although I suspect that the number of times that can gather wider attention is limited). I applaud the initiative of those involved. But we will also need more demonstrations. And, more importantly than either, more talking to ordinary punters. More local anti-war groups. Anything which helps us get our message across to the mass of working people in a way which convinces rather than alienates.

Direct actions are tactics not principles. We have to keep our goals in mind. In some circumstances some tactics are useful, in others they are not. For instance mass non-payment of the refuse charges is a form of direct action which is a real and direct threat on the issue, quite apart from the enormous propaganda value of hundreds of thousands of people disobeying the government.

by Phuq Hedd Fri Nov 08, 2002 04:44

Brian,
I agree that spraypainting the plane (while a good thing) was primarily a call for attention. It was useful because the media had completely ignored the issue and it was spectacular enough to capture a couple of minutes of airtime. I'm not advocating mass spraypainting of planes as a way to stop war (although I applaud it when it happens I'd be sorry if a couple of thousand people decided to spray paint planes instead of obstructing the airport. The spraypaint reference was a small part of a quote which showed that there has been activity at Shannon for a while, some of it of the symbolic, media-stunt type that you favour and some of it more effective such as the interruption of the refuelling).

I also agree that stand-around-listening-to-celebrity-politico type demonstrations can have a value. I just question if this is the time for it and more importantly whether it's diverting people from Sun 8th's demonstration at Shannon.

>>Demonstrations, rallies and public meetings help us to get better organised and to raise morale>While I can certainly understand that marching can feel routine or even boring to those of us who are relatively experienced activists,>Activities like the spraypainting of warplanes have no more direct impact on the American warmachine than the much derided "listening to speeches".>So we get back to the question of how Irish people can damage the Anglo-American wardrive. The answer is to build a mass movement so big and so strong that it terrifies our wretched government and forces it to drop its assistance entirely.>Direct actions are tactics not principles. We have to keep our goals in mind. In some circumstances some tactics are useful, in others they are not.
>>

I completely agree. And so are listen-to-the-speech parades. What we've seen so far is that there are more effective results from direct action where people do it themselves instead of trying to appeal to the government to change. The Bin Taxes which you cite are a concrete example of how change is not achieved by appealing to politicians. Any success of that campaign has nothing to do with the traditional approach of seeking concessions from government, but resulted from people actually not paying. The politicians followed happily afterwards.

When the people lead the leaders will follow. If the thousands of people that are interested in stopping the war descend on Shannon and shut it down by peacefully invading it then there'll be an issue that politicians can pretend they're in charge of. Don't give up the fight before it's even started Brian.

B.t.w. Paul Kinsella who is organising the march? I've not heard of it before.

by GreenPartyMike - Green party USA Fri Nov 08, 2002 07:38 ollamhfaery at earthlink dot net

It just needs to be said again. Thank you all and remember, tho the media may present otherwise not all of us over here in the US are nuts, tho the last election result makes me wonder. keep up the good work

by Anticapitalist Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:38

The problem with what you're saying Brian is that, as usual, you assume that the world is divided between those who have got the "analysis" sorted out and the dumb masses who need to "hear" them. It might come as a surprise to you and the rest of the institutionalised left in this country, but there is a growing number of people who find this attitude unbearably patronising. We are all for speeches and discussion, but unfortunately for you we don't regard being forced to listen and applaud to the umpteenth pontification of the same bunch of lefty leaders discussion.

by Andrew Fri Nov 08, 2002 11:30

First off its not desirable to get into a 'our demo is better they yours' row that would just reduce the numbers on both demos. From my point of view I'd encourage anyone who can attend both to do so and if you can only make one they choose whatever YOU think will have the bigger impact.

It's also not a question of counter posing direct action to mobilising the largest numbers we can. Instead we need to look at how the two can help each other - the media attention received after the last direct action will hopefully encourage people to go on the Dublin demonstration and hopefully the Dublin demonstration will be used to encourage as many people as possible to head to Shannon the following day.

That said we need to be clear about what can stop the war - this is mass direct action. Polls show most people oppose the war and refueling but the government obviously support it. So unless you are talking of marches of tens or hundreds of thousands we won't force a government change of policy. If this war is like recent ones where the actual fighting happens over a period of weeks rather then years then its unlikely we will see tens of thousands mobilised.

However while a march of 5,000 or 10,000 in Dublin won't effect government policy similar numbers tearing down the fence in Shannon and taking over the entire airport would. With those sort of numbers we could physically stop Shannon being used and physically dismantle any war planes we caught on the ground. The government would then have to choose between militarising the airport and arresting hundreds or asking the US to take its war planes elsewhere.

This would have an important direct impact on the war as its clear that considerable war supplies and troops are moving through Shannon (and Knock?). But in Europe it would also have a massive political impact in encouraging the same methods being used elsewhere. If even half the 300,000 who marched in London started closing down British war bases their then Britian could effectivly be taken out of the war.

These are reasonable objectives as already that number of people are taking part in demonstrations. It's simply a question (while also building the numbers) of convincing them that this is a way to have a very direct impact on the war.

Of course that is also a political question and I think its why direct action is a principle as well as being one of a number of tactics. We want to see people take power into their own hands rather then relying on a few good men in the Dail. A victory on refueling as a result of a Dail vote would be a step forward but would have a limited long term impact. A victory on the basis of thousands of people stopping the use of Shannon themselvers would transform politics in Ireland.

by iosaf Fri Nov 08, 2002 11:34

the growing megaphone wielders of the fifth international have cornered milky coffee supply and are invovled in hand to hand combat with the Italian disobedients. A spokesperson for the Italian youth section of the Socialist Workers Movement said "e perché noi tutti vogliano una satatlita, non é giusto che gli anarchisti cheánno uno é noi niente"
which translates as
"its because we all want a satellite, its not right that the anarchists have one and us nothing"

It´s reported on the Hotbird satelite (point your dish east 13º) that local police "caribonieri" have offered to mediate between bolshoviks in Florence to set up the fifth international and disobedients who have the last century to realise that you don´t need to hear the "umpteenth pontification" [terminology used by a Irish comrade].

Anarchists have so far refused the offer of police mediation.

by Shuttin Sionnain! Fri Nov 08, 2002 11:35

Why is the anti-war campaign not run by activists on the same way as Nice was?
Aswell as demos and symbolic dir-act we need to-
Leaflet our local communities!
Write letters to local and regional newspapers!
Contact all T.D.'s, Senators,Councillors who will add their name to the movement!
Poster smaller communities!
Use the shitty radio shows!
The wider public are not being given the full story on Shannon and that is our job to do that not just by going to a demo because as we know the nice people at RTE are not interested!(that is unless we occupy Shannon, mmmmmmmm)
But if this is put more directly to the people by ourselves in various ways then we build no's and then we will be heard!
Get those Photocopiers going (Greens,SWP,WSM,PANA etc..) and tell us where we can get the leaflets and posters to give to our neighbours!
Now or Never!

by Raymond McInerney - Global Country of World Peace Fri Nov 08, 2002 13:46 raymond.mcinerney at ul dot ie

Wars will stop once we have large groups of experts meditating together around the world.

In Mozambique, the Maharishi’s followers say they have even ended a 16-year guerrilla war. After they convinced President Joaquim Alberto Chissano to meditate twice a day, the national leader instructed his Cabinet ministers to do the same, then had his government officers and the military trained in TM.

“The result has been political peace and balance in nature in my country,” Chissano, a former Marxist bush fighter, told Britain’s Guardian newspaper last year.

by Paul Kinsella - Irish Anti War Movement (Speaking in a personal capacity) Fri Nov 08, 2002 15:11 paulkinsella53 at yahoo dot com 53 Lorcan Grove, Dublin 9, Eire 087-9748511

Thank you all for your contributions to this debate. IOSAF the first I knew about December's Dublin was when I seen it on a lamp post outside TCD. It does have the IAWM's name on it, but I've not received any notification from the IAWM as of yet about December's demo. Personally I support more direct action activities. Please find enclosed some ideas from the US about how the rapidly growing Anti war movement over there plan to protest the upcoming war against the people of Iraq.

CCAWR Emergency
Response Plan

If the U.S. launches another full-scale war on Iraq,
the anti-war movement must respond, putting an end to
the war as quickly as possible. With this in mind,
the Chicago Coalition Against War & Racism (CCAWR) has
developed an emergency response plan to protest the
spread of war abroad and further attacks on civil
liberties at home:

* If the U.S. starts bombing another country (or
dramatically increases its current bombing of Iraq and
Afghanistan), a protest will take place at 5 pm
at the Federal Plaza, Adams & Dearborn Streets,
Chicago, the day the bombing begins, with a follow up
protest at the same time and place the day after.

* In the event of a provocative attack on community
leaders or their organizations in the Chicago area,
CCAWR has constructed a phone tree to mobilize the
community to quickly protest the attack, whether at a
police station, federal government office, or other
appropriate place. To become part of the emergency
response phone tree and/or e-mail list, please
call CCAWR at 312.458.9559 and leave a message or
e-mail [email protected]

NO WAR IN IRAQ

Tens of thousands will converge in Washington DC
January 18-19, 2003

MASS DEMONSTRATION and the Convening of the GRASSROOTS
PEACE CONGRESS

We wanted to let everyone know that momentum is
growing for the January
18 Mass March and the January 19 Grassroots Peace
Congress to say "No
War in Iraq." Buses, vans and car caravans are being
organized from
communities, high schools and campuses all over the
East Coast, South and
Midwest. More than 150 cities organized
transportation to be at the
protest of 200,000 in DC on October 26 -- and those
organizers left the
protest pledging to continue to mobilize for an even
larger
turnout on January 18-19.

Millions of people outside of DC watched the rally on
C-Span or
listened to it on Pacifica Radio's live coverage.
Many more found out about
it through other media coverage -- including a major
article that
appeared in the October 30 edition of the New York
Times (a much better
article than the biased article that appeared on
October 27 after the Times
received thousands of angry phone calls and emails) --
and are now
beginning to organize. 50,000 people have registered
on the VoteNoWar.org
website. This is in addition to the tens of thousands
who have filled
out paper ballots/petitions on October 26 and in the
days since.
A.N.S.W.E.R. offices around the country are daily
being contacted by
organizers and volunteers whose commitment to mobilize
makes us confident that
January 18-19 will be a massive outpouring of
opposition to war in
Iraq.

WHY YOU SHOULD BE IN DC JAN. 18-19:

When Congress rejects the will of the people, the
people must act
themselves. Congress has rubber-stamped Bush's
criminal war that seeks to
conquer the oil, land and resources of the Middle
East. Bush and
Congress have shown that they represent the interests
of Corporate America
rather than the people of the United States.

A people's movement is growing to stop them. On
January 18 and 19 tens
of thousands of people will participate in mass
protest activities on
the Martin Luther King Jr. anniversary weekend.

Dr. King publicly condemned the U.S. war in Vietnam,
providing a
powerful connection between the civil rights movement
and the anti-war
movement. In his "Beyond Vietnam" speech at Riverside
Church in 1967, he
stated, "The greatest purveyor of violence in the
world today [is] my own
government. . . [F]or the sake of the hundreds of
thousands trembling
under our violence, I cannot be silent."

Dr. King believed that it was impossible to
successfully wage a war on
poverty at home while waging a war of aggression in
Vietnam. The same
can be said today about George W. Bush's global war
drive. Social
programs and services are being looted as Bush and
Congress provide
record-breaking sums for weapons of mass destruction
and war. Bush has signed
into law Congress's new defense budget that transfers
a billion dollars a
day from the people into the hands of the
military-industrial complex.

The thousands who are coming to Washington, D.C.,
honor Dr. King and
his legacy by opposing a criminal war in Iraq -- this
time not in
Vietnam, but in the Middle East -- and by demanding
instead that these
hundreds of billions of dollars earmarked for war
instead be spent on jobs,
education, housing, health care and to meet human
needs.

The grassroots Peace Congress will be comprised of
delegations from all
communities who are coming together in the streets and
in a People's
Congress to forge the opposition necessary to stop the
Bush
Administration's war drive: labor, students and youth,
fighters for civil rights and
women's rights, the LGBT community and people of
faith.

Join with others around the country by bringing a
diverse delegation
from your community to participate in the January 18
mass march and the
January 19th People's Congress.

To ENDORSE the January 18-19 Mass Actions in DC, fill
out the
easy-to-use form at:
http://internationalanswer.org/campaigns/j18/j18endorse.html#endo

If you plan to ORGANIZE TRANSPORTATION from your area
to be in DC
January 18-19, fill out the easy-to-use form at:
http://internationalanswer.org/campaigns/j18/j18endorse.html#transp

*** Register your opposition to the war at
http://www.VoteNoWar.org ***

FOR MORE INFORMATION:
http://www.InternationalANSWER.org
http://www.VoteNoWar.org
Email: [email protected]
New York 212-633-6646
Washington 202-332-5757
Chicago 773-878-0166
Los Angeles 213-487-2368
San Francisco 415-821-6545

Send replies to [email protected]

by Paul Tree Fri Nov 08, 2002 17:36

Anyone that is doing anything against the war whether it be marching or engaging in direct action is doing something worthwhile.
Agree that the Direct Action highlighted the demo in Shannon probably because the media wanted to portray people 'tearing down fences' as mindless violent troublemakers. The only thing about it though is that yes you can say 5 or 10 thousand people in Shannon shutting down the airport but at this stage in the game how many will honestly engage in it? Not the majority i would say, people need to gain confidence.

by Raymond McInerney Fri Nov 08, 2002 17:56 raymond.mcinerney at ul dot ie

Effects of Group Practice of the Transcendental Meditation Program on Preventing Violent Crime in Washington, DC:

Results of the National Demonstration Project,
June–July 1993
http://www.mum.edu/m_effect/dc_md.html

No one disputes the value of modern computers, televisions, cellular phones and countless other technologies utilizing the electromagnetic field. However, 100 years ago people would have thought we were crazy if we talked about these technologies

Once people began to understand the electromagnetic field and its enormous applications, conventional methods—like using candles for lighting or carrier pigeons for communication—quickly became outdated. With these new research findings, which demonstrate the potential for creating order and coherence in society through the field effects of consciousness, guns and other weapons and war will very soon become obsolete.

"What we are looking at here is a new paradigm of viewing crime and violence." - Dr. Anne Hughes, University of the District of Columbia

"This work and theory that informs it deserve the most serious consideration by academics and policy makers alike." - Dr. David Edwards, University of Texas-Austin

According to the researchers, more than 42 studies conducted during the past 25 years have verified the field effects of consciousness. A study published in 1988 in the Journal of Conflict Resolution reported on an experiment conducted in Jerusalem where a group of Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi programs experts had assembled during the war in Lebanon. As the number of TM-Sidhi program group practitioners peaked on several occasions during the two-month experimental period, war deaths in nearby Lebanon were found to drop correspondingly.

Social Indicators Research
An International and Interdisciplinary Journal for Quality-of-Life Measurement
June 1999, Volume 47, Issue 2
http://www.kluweronline.com/issuetoc.htm/0303-8300+47+2+1999

by young and stupid Fri Nov 08, 2002 22:58

I am sick of listening to the same old shutins above saying lets have yet another 'huge march'. They told us this same nonsense before the bottleworkers march from smithfield. These marches have absolutely no impact even when they are not the usual small turnout. Most people ignore them. Many people think everybody on them are crazy when they hear the swp hysterically screaming stupid slogans into megaphones all along the route. We need a new way to convince people, not to switch them off.

by Raymond McInerney Fri Nov 08, 2002 23:59

You could write letters to newspapers, magazines, web-sites etc. Alot of information available on the web to help you out.

Make a leaflet and hand them door to door, to clubs etc., on the streets.

Arrrange talks in your location. There would a number of people in Ireland to choose from that would love to speak at these talks.

Arrange a concert, pub quiz, vigil, sporting event. Wear a t-shirt with a relevant slogan.

All the best.

by iosaf Sat Nov 09, 2002 13:54

The 11th of September 2001 was as almost everyone knows Catalan national day. I awoke in a friends apartment and phoned London where as not so many people know there was a very large meeting of
Campaign Against the Arms Trade. they were protesting one of the largest to date arms fairs.
Just before I got through, and I didn´t the telecom service was "interrupted", the uncle of my hostess called from the USA. He had been one of the hippies who had joined hands around the Pentagon in the 1960´s to "love bomb it".
He urged us on the cellular (mobile) [vodafone] to turn on the TV, my hostess is a bourgoise type soul but I forgive her her satelite TV as it is small consolation for being permantly confined to a wheelchair after a car mowed her down many years ago. We saw the Pentagon with Potomac side in flames on CNN. Ah, said my hostess the "witchcraft worked, slowly slowly but it worked", I left her house and walked to the "Arc de Triomf" in Barcelona where I spent the afternoon listening to updates on the WT centre attacks and talking over Catalan and Basque and Breton nationalism with many interesting people there attending a Catalan "independentist" concert. So you see Pat, people did. Or at least they wished to, and when forty years later they saw the building in flames their hearts jumped and they thought :
"the witchcraft worked it worked slowly slowly".

by fresh horizons Sun Nov 10, 2002 16:02

Raymond McInerney is trying at least to think of some more intelligent ways of appealing to people. I dont think that he has come up with anything all that new, but he presents it in a less boring way than groups such as the sp and swp. However if more people are to be convinced then more immaginative approaches have to be developed.