IRSP: Report on the Costello Commemoration
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news report
Monday November 04, 2002 21:40
by Danielle Ni Dhighe - Irish Republican Socialist Movement
danielle at irsm dot org
IRSP: Report on the Costello Commemoration
20 October 2002
Bray, Ireland
Report on the Costello Commemoration
The weather was atrocious and it never stopped pouring rain, but
Irish Republican Socialist Party and Irish National Liberation Army
founder Seamus Costello was commemorated by many whose lives he had
touched on the 25th anniversary of his murder by counter-
revolutionaries in the Official IRA.
A piper lead the march, followed by an INLA colour party, and the
marchers who came from throughout Ireland to commemorate the memory
of one of Ireland's greatest working class leaders. From the old Town
Hall, the march proceeded on a 20 minute walk to the cemetery in
Little Bray. Half way to the cemetery, the Kevin Lynch Memorial Band,
whose bus had been delayed from Dungiven, arrived and joined the
march.
Dublin IRSP comrade Daithi Hopkins chaired the proceedings. The first
speaker was IRSP Ard-Chomhairle member John Martin, followed by Sean
Doyle (former friend and comrade of Costello's). Sean Doyle was
followed by Donna Downey of the Bray IRSP Cumann, who read a
statement from the INLA prisoners of war. She was followed by Ben
Higgins, the Bray IRSP Cumann's chief marshal, who read out the
IRSP's International Department statement by IRSC North American
Coordinator Peter Urban. After this, Bernadette McAliskey delivered
the keynote speech of the commemoration.
The proceedings started with the piper leading the band, the INLA
colour party and wreath layers to the grave side of Seamus Costello.
Due to respect for the dead was shown and so that other graves were
not trampled upon, the IRSP asked the other participants to stay
behind in the car park beside the church, where the speeches were
delivered. The proceedings ended with a minute of silence.
Afterwards the estimated 150 people who participated in the
commemoration, which included both of Seamus Costello's two brothers,
made their way to a nearby pub for a social gathering.
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Comments (76 of 76)
Jump To Comment: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76Would you be that Danielle of the "Puget Sound" chapter of the IRSM?
Take a hint. Puget Sound isn't suffering the consequences of terrorism, republican or loyalist.
If you lived in a place where you walked in fear of the coalition of thugs, united by their shared disrespect for human life then you could justify spreading your propaganda.
...you don't have anything even remotely relevant to say about this thread.
IRSP have no place on Indymedia.
You're nationalistic ideology is reactionary and unsocialist.
You're tactics of individual terrorism not only not works, it's also an indication of your undemocratic beliefs. You put no faith in ordinary people, it's up to the gunman to do things.
Could someone from the IRSP (or anyother of the other terrorist parties SF, RSF, etc) please tell me why they wish to isolate Protestents? are protestents not Irish too?
or is it that you're right-wing catholic fundementalists?
"If you lived in a place where you walked in fear of the coalition of thugs, united by their shared disrespect for human life then you could justify spreading your propaganda"
sounds like you are describing catholic areas which are under siege from loyalists.
What with all these bloody INLA statements, do you think you have a sympathetic audience here? Your organisation has nothing to be proud of, you legacy amounts to bloody murder and mindless violence. You have contirbuted nothing to Ireland, or the socialist movement. Think of all of your own members, never mind the many others who would be alive today if it wasn't for your fucked up political analysis. What did they die for,what did they achieve, was it worth it, what was the point? The INLA/IRSP represent noone but themselves and the sooner they're forgotten forever the better. Disband dickheads.
"Could someone from the IRSP (or anyother of the other terrorist parties SF, RSF, etc) please tell me why they wish to isolate Protestents? are protestents not Irish too?"
could someone from the imc west brits please tell me why they ignore the plight of northern catholics? why do they have nothing to say about the campaign of ethnic cleansing being carried out by loyalists?
"IRSP have no place on Indymedia"
so the imc west brits admit they want to introduce section 31 to indymedia.
"Afterwards the estimated 150 people who participated in the
commemoration, which included both of Seamus Costello's two brothers,
made their way to a nearby pub for a social gathering."
In other words there was a big piss up. Seamus would've been proud of ye lads. Hic!
I find myself in the position of defending the IRSP. Personally I have no time for the organisation, its beliefs, or those members I have met, but to suggest any organisation or party hasn't the right to post to Indymedia because a self-appointed cabal deem it wrong is something I would be opposed to.
This stance is not based on the grounds that the IRSP claim to be republicans, or the fact that they support the use of armed struggle, but simply the grounds that this is supposed to be an open medium. Much as I would object if the WSM, or the SWP, or the Sparts for the matter, were told to fuck off I object about people attacking the IRSP. If you don't like what they post, no-one is forcing you to respond, if you really don't like it, debate with them, but ridiculous abuse and calling for people you disagree with to be excluded isn't particularly interesting to read.
As for 'republican hater', such tired nonsense doesn't deserve a response. Much as there are Catholic Unionists there are Protestant Republicans, no-one in SF is planning on forcing Protestants into the sea. Tempting to force ignorant trolling sods with too much time on their hands into the sea....
So Pat's back to claim that the INLA were supported by Northern Catholics and brand everyone else a West Brit. Where exactly did you get this mandate to defend nationalist communities and claim to represent their interests, how popular is the party, who are you accountable to, or maybe the truth is that you're little more that a gang of thugs, who only represent youselves. Maybe, just maybe it's the INLA rather than the rest of the country who don't support the IRSP who are out of touch with the reality and the wishes of the population. But maybe Pat your right and we're all just West Brits.....feeble insult, always the last resort of the small-minded nationalist.
"What with all these bloody INLA statements, do you think you have a sympathetic audience here?"
so you are some type of censor who decides whats fit for indymedia?
You had better get used to the republican postings on indymedia. we're not going away you know.
go home to britland & enter the service of your queen.
I don't think anyone was seriously proposing censorship, it was a turn of phrase. In the same way that their is no room for Justin Barret, the BNP, etc etc on indy media. Of course facists/nazi/scumbag INLA are allowed to post, but their bullshit politics should be shown up for what they really are. Let's not get too pedantic...its boring.
so daves back.
this is the guy who believes his political opponents should be beaten up by state forces while he watchs from behind a window.
you are a pathetic fool. if you have any comment to make about the original posting then make it. nothing you have contributed so far on several threads convinces me that you are anything but a west brit. (it must be hitting home & hurting; this is the third time you've brought it up)
isn't amazing how brave you west brits are behind your masks? you would never dare make these threats & deliver abuse openly.
craven cowards.
"could someone from the imc west brits please tell me why they ignore the plight of northern catholics? why do they have nothing to say about the campaign of ethnic cleansing being carried out by loyalists?"
What an enlightened comment. Well I'll tell you this, I do not support sectarian attacks on Catholics, or on Protestents. I think people should defend themselves against paramilitary thugs, but you dont do this by supporting another group of sectarian thugs.
Do republicans really believe that Catholics are immune from sectarianism? Are there not catholic sectarians? are protestents not alos attacked? If anything, protestents feel more under-siege than catholics!
Could republicans please tell me why it is that you adopt tactics and methods that do alienate protestents from you? Protestents are not one large group that are in league with the British State! they face the same problems as catholics.
Although I would disagree with Justin on many things, I would agree with him when he says that IRSP do have right to put things on this website.
And I dont see 'West Brit' as an insult. Is there something wrong about being British? I'm Irish, but I know many British people. I respect and value British culture. I think that you will soon realise that we in Ireland have quite a lot in common with ordinary British people.
Perhaps you're reading a different debate to the one I am but where in this argument has anyone shown up the IRSP's politics? No-one has seriously challenged their ideas, their politics, their beliefs, no-one has tried to engage with them, no-one has pointed out the massive, gaping, canyon wide flaws in their beliefs and ideas.
Instead we've had the usual mindless, kneejerk abuse that is the hallmark of debate on Indymedia. God forbid informed political debate take place, instead when some-one from the SWP posts something vaguely interesting you can almost gurantee they will be jumped on by a passing Anarchist or other Trot. Should an Anarchi post, as sure as night follows day less then incisive questioning regarding Anarchism and elections will appear....again. Much the same applies to republicans posting. Everyone seems determined to score points over their political rivals or enemies instead of either posting news, for which the newswire is established, or debating political issues.
If people want to put it up to the IRSP, or Sinn Féin, or anyone, do so and it'd be welcome. But abusive off-the cuff 'Your side are all sectarian wankers and my side is right on everything' is Indymedia's version of football hooliganism.
"Of course facists/nazi/scumbag INLA are allowed to post, but their bullshit politics should be shown up for what they really are"
in what way are the inla fascist? have you any understanding of the term?
which actions of the inla lead you to believe they are nazis? please give examples.
i am not a member of the irsp or inla but i will defend them against attacks from west brits & liberal hypocrits.
"And I dont see 'West Brit' as an insult. Is there something wrong about being British? I'm Irish, but I know many British people. I respect and value British culture. I think that you will soon realise that we in Ireland have quite a lot in common with ordinary British people".
there is something wrong with being british if they won't admit to their imperialist past & present imperialist pretensions. a lot of the british working class are extermely jingoistic. look at their reaction to the the malvinas war, the 1st gulf war. the ongoing aggression against iraq. their acceptance of the british war of terror carried out in ireland.
only a small minority of ordinary british people have ever stood up against british imperialism.
"Do republicans really believe that Catholics are immune from sectarianism? Are there not catholic sectarians? are protestents not alos attacked? If anything, protestents feel more under-siege than catholics!"
more under siege than catholics? are you for real?
more than 90% of sectarian incidents are carried out by loyalists. catholics are being ethnically cleansed on a local level all over the north.
i begin to wonder about your credentials o "non sectarian socialist"
Why do these debates always end up with people that are not nationalists being called 'west brits'? Fro what I can see, when nationalistic republicans are engaged in debate they always throw in 'West Brits' and 'Queen lovers' etc.
Well I put up a positing challenging Republicans to debate on the issues.
Here are a few questions:
1. Why do you adopt tactics, methods, and language, that isolate Protestents?
2. Why do you support terrorist tactics that put the emphasis on the individual gunman and not the working class? are you not socialists?
3. Do you deny that there is catholic sectarianism?
4. Are sectarians not also attacking protestents?
5. Do Protestents not also face the same problems as Catholics? if so why not build unity along class lines?
6. If you're socialists how can you justify lack of international links, and your nationalist outlook?
Engaging with Pat, who if memorary serves me correct is credited as being from the press office of the IRSP on previous posts, tends simply to result in being called a west brit. I think history testifies to the fact that the INLA are not really interested in poliical chit chat, they prefer shooting people. When I get the opportunitey to address one directly I generally tend to call a spade a spade, Saying the INLA are misguided thugs is not simply a term of abuse it is a fact. If that leads the thugs to brand me arrogant or West Brit so be it, it's hardly a suprise, I wouldn't expect anything less.
Pat C said the following:
"there is something wrong with being british if they won't admit to their imperialist past & present imperialist pretensions. a lot of the british working class are extermely jingoistic. look at their reaction to the the malvinas war, the 1st gulf war. the ongoing aggression against iraq. their acceptance of the british war of terror carried out in ireland."
If you actually knew anything about the British working class you would know that they are not "extremely jingoistic". Yes, there would be a certain element of nationalists among British workers, particularly among lumpen elements. But the fact is the British working class are not a large groups of jingoistic nationalists.
If you do look at the reaction to British Imperialism you will see that the British workers are opposed to it! Most British people oppose the bombing of Iraq. There was huge opposition to the Malvinas war and the 1st Gulf war, also the Kosovo war more recently. The British Labour movement never supprted the oppressive methods used against Irish people.
I think that you have to realise that British workers are also victims of their governments. The British people are not to blame for past imperialism. The British establishment are the ones that implemented imperialism, blame them, why not attack tehm and not ordinary British people.
The reality is that the only solution to the national question (in Ireland and internationally) is socialism. Socialism will overcome the negative nationalism that is bred by capitalism.
1. Why do you adopt tactics, methods, and language, that isolate Protestents?
Such as?
2. Why do you support terrorist tactics that put the emphasis on the individual gunman and not the working class? are you not socialists?
We don’t support terrorist tactics. Republicans have in the past supported the use of revolutionary armed struggle to achieve republican objectives when there is no peaceful, democratic, manner in which to achieve this. Any revolutionary organisation or movement that has achieved a modicum of success in overthrowing entrenched right wing reactionary governments has needed to use force, or to be able to show the threat of force. The overwhelming bulk of the IRA for example were working class people, supported by working class communities without whose support they could not have survived.
3. Do you deny that there is catholic sectarianism?
Certainly not. I do deny that for historical and political reasons it is not as common, nor as vicious, as anti-Catholic sectarianism. This is not based on one religion being better than the other, but on the political development of the conflict and the use of religion by an imperalist government to split the working class.
4. Are sectarians not also attacking protestents?
As above, these attacks take place but even the RUC have admitted that over 90% of attacks come from Loyalism. Whether the crucifiction attack at the weekend or the attack on a GAA club last night and a myriad of others. This does not make anti-Protestant attacks legitimate, but the ‘two tribes’ theory so beloved of ‘socialists’ in Ireland is shown as false.
5. Do Protestents not also face the same problems as Catholics? if so why not build unity along class lines?
In terms of socio-economic problems, largely yes. As for the second question, if it’s that easy, you do it :) It is in the interest of the capitalist class and the British government to entrench sectarian division. Unity across class lines has been attempted by the republican movement in the past but opposition from Unionism, in particular the Unionist middle class broke it. The Protestant working class has been used as cannon fodder by middle and upper class Unionism and the British government. If you think you can do a better job of explaning that to them, be my guest.
6. If you're socialists how can you justify lack of international links, and your nationalist outlook?
Our what? Our links with comrades in the Basque Country? With Palestine? With Cuba? With South Africa during the worst of the apartheid years? With dozens of others? We may not be members of some fringe International but we are very proud of our international links which are extremely well developed and the international solidarity republicans have demonstrated time and time and time again. As for nationalism, republicans believe in liberty, we believe in the right of the Irish people, and we have a very broad multicultural definition of that, to control the destiny of the Irish state. I wouldn’t see myself as a nationalist though I certainly have nationalist sympathies in that I want foreign governments to allow the Irish people to run the Irish state, and in particular, the Irish working class.
"If you do look at the reaction to British Imperialism you will see that the British workers are opposed to it! Most British people oppose the bombing of Iraq. There was huge opposition to the Malvinas war and the 1st Gulf war, also the Kosovo war more recently. The British Labour movement never supprted the oppressive methods used against Irish people."
this is patently untrue. there was widespread support for the malvinas war amongst the british working class. only a small minority opposed it .
even the militant took a pro - imperialist position. they then tried to justify it by calling for a :"socialist federation of the british isles(sic), argentina & the falklands (sic)"
the worst oppression was carried out under labour. they took away political status, brought in the h blocks, intruduced the castlereagh interrogation sdystem. the guilford 4, birmingham 6 etc were jailed under labour.
Mindless thugs? I can think of certain parties and organisations I could refer to as 'unbelieveably naive fools', 'sectarian cult-like drones', 'sell-outs' and half a dozen I can cheerfully refer to as completely divorced from reality.
I tend not to do so because it's rather difficult to debate with some-one you've just insulted. The IRSP is neither mindless, nor are all its members thugs. This is not to say that every effort is bent towards its stated objective but simply that running a political party, a movement, and an alleged armed wing requires people to have minds. Certain parties spring to mind as possible exceptions but there are intelligent, well-meaning people in almost every party or organisation.
Portraying them as mindless thugs is the same kind of tabloid, lowest common denominator, thinking that allows capitalists to portray anyone who disagrees with them as fools.
"The Protestant working class has been used as cannon fodder by middle and upper class "
Oh how stupid of me, and I was thinking it might have been the fault of the republican thug who pulled the trigger or planted the bomb in the middle fo the town, but maybe that analysis is too simple, it must have been the fault of the Protestant middle classes!!!!!
"Engaging with Pat, who if memorary serves me correct is credited as being from the press office of the IRSP on previous posts"
i gave those details for irsp contact purposes. i have made it clear on several occasions that i am not an irsp member. i will defend the irsm against attacks from west brits, liberal hypocrites & pro-imperialists.
i have worked with the irsp in pro-choice, anti-racist & anti-bin charges campaigns to name but a few. this more than anything else makes the abuse showered on the irsp seem ridiclious.
Your analysis is too simple and you are being stupid. Wow, this insulting other people thing is kind of fun.
There was a certain level of support for the imperialism of the UK. Nationalistic jingoism is propagated by the ruling class among working people, especially among the lumpen elements.
I'm not saying the British workers are one large revolutionary socialist mass, nor am I saying they are one large jingoistic mass (which is what you are saying)
The British LAbour movement never supported oppressive measures on Ireland, or on Irish in Britian. The Labour Party leaderships were not representative of their party or the broader Labour movement. The vast majority of conscious working class people opposed the UK's imperialist war and attacks on Ireland and Irish communities in the UK.
What I've read of Militant's Falklands position is that it's a socialist position. It does not give support to Argentina, who also wanted Falklands for 'imperialist/nationalist' reaons. From what I remember the Militant called for the right of self determination for the people of the Falklands. Someone from the SP could correct me on that, I't been a while since I've read their postion on the Falklands.
Pat says: "so daves back.
this is the guy who believes his political opponents should be beaten up by state forces while he watchs from behind a window."
Your're wrong Pat it was just you and your mates I was referring to. I wouldn't want anyone to think I supported the flipant use of excessive force....god forbid pat, what a thought!
you are showing yourself to be a fool , a hypocrit & a coward.
come out from behind your mask.
What purpose does all the above comments serve. I think if people want to argue about the IRSP they should do so off line with the IRSP. The slagging just makes indimedia less interesting for people. I want to know what you all are involved in to make Ireland a better place, more democratic, representative, just and equal.
I am no supporter of the IRSP but they have suffered because of their beliefs as much as anyone else in the North and have been victims of miscarriages of justice both North and South as well as being constantly harrassed by the Cops north & south.
The situation of D. O'Hare in Portlaoise prison is about human rights and not about the INLA or what he is in prison for. Many on this site that are currently slagging the INLA/IRSP would gladly spend next Saturday protesting about a PLO prisoner held by the Israeli's.
No matter what your opinion of the EARPS an injury to one is an injury to all.
Let's hear more about what everyone is doing to 'Fight the Power' and lessabout peoples dislikes of other groups not responsible for the poverty and inequality that exists in our society
What a completely stupid thing to say John, your a complete gimp and a nob.
This is the only forum we on the looney left have, it is much more traditional and more fun to just hurl abuse at each other, its what we're best at. We've been doing it for years, and its the best way of attracting vulnerable students. Ok so it devalues our causes, but wer'e already completely discredited in the mind of most sane thinking people, so what the hell. Being on the loony left is a farce and this site is prove of it, all you muppets do is fight - its like the scene out of Life of Brian, Peoples front of Judea, Judean People's front...its funny just to observe the stupidity of its all. Viva la revolution muppets.
Come out from Behind your own mask Pat.
I read Bernadette Devlin's book 'Price of My Soul' when I was a kid of 12. It was and is a fantastic book. It amazed me that 7 years later when I came to live in dublin I was called a proto-provo, Provoid, fellow traveller, by educated young people from all over Ireland when all I ever did was try to realistically describe what I knew of the origin and causes of the 'troubles' (late 60's - Present). I think there is a huge problem on this island that was caused by the state Censorship and blatant Propaganda that was rife throughout my youth. We are the 'section 31' Generation. Squabbling among ourselves (all this west brit shit which is simply the inverse of Proto-provo type language) when we could educate and debate is crazy.
Censorship still exists here . . as Mr Dunphy bravely commented on Radio Yesterday . . 'You are not allowed to tell the truth in the Irish Media'. IMC Broke the 'law' a few months ago and did so deliberately by publishing the Ansbacher Report on the internet. We told all the media here this and they preferred to pretend that people willing to do such a thing did not exist. IMC is anti Censorship. It is very difficult to oppose censorship for many reasons at present in Ireland (and I'm not referring to either the north or south here). People willing to abuse rather than support IMC in doing this are not helping one bit. Pat C. Go look at the mailing lists. And stop accusing others of hiding their identities when you do the same.
Ignorance is Blisset yet again.
"People willing to abuse rather than support IMC in doing this are not helping one bit. Pat C. Go look at the mailing lists. And stop accusing others of hiding their identities when you do the same. "
I have never hidden my identity unlike the west brit vermin who make their attacks & issue threats from behind a mask. I have given my full name in the past. its my style to contribute under Pat C.
You seem to see any criticism as abuse. You have never criticised the West Brits for making threats or delivering abuse.
"all this west brit shit which is simply the inverse of Proto-provo type language"
west brit is an accurate description of those who attack republicans for being: republicans! they also suuport state violence against republicans.
it is not possible to have a rational debate with these people. just look at their descritions of the inla & irsp as fascist & then their inability to come up with any examples .
John says 'I am no supporter of the IRSP but they have suffered because of their beliefs as much as anyone else in the North"
What a complete load of bollox. A lot of innocent people have suffered in the North, people who only wanted to make a living, bring up a family, and live in peace. INLA people who have suffered knew exactly what they were getting into, running around with guns comes with risks..thats bloody obvious. While people from all sides have suffered, let's not try the equate the suffering of truely innocent people with the suffering of those behind the carnage.
"I'm not perfect - are you?
by Hey Pat Tue, Nov 5 2002, 1:17pm"
i make no claims of perfection. unlike some i admit my past mistakes (christ, i was even a wp sympathiser once! that was on the rebound from trotskyism though)
and i wouldn't be surprised if some of present idesa are wrong headed.
"I'm not perfect - are you?
by Hey Pat Tue, Nov 5 2002, 1:17pm"
i make no claims of perfection. unlike some i admit my past mistakes (christ, i was even a wp sympathiser once! that was on the rebound from trotskyism though)
and i wouldn't be surprised if some of my present ideas are wrong headed.
some learn from experience. others like the west brits & liberals here stick to their prejudices come what may.
The term "west brit" may have a limited relevance as a descriptive term, but its use as an inflammatory and unnescessary term of abuse contributes nothing to the furthering of debate.
By the same token, when discussion reaches the point of arguing over who said what when, its use as a constructive activity is essentially abandoned.
This much is elementary and should be obvious. People willing to accept this as obvious will mostly accept the futility of continuing debate once this pointy has been reached: Once debate reaches this level there is usually no point in going on, at least in public.
[There are various points in the original post and subsequent replies that I'd like to comment on, but the likelihood is that there would be little point in attempting to do this.]
The most longwinded, self-important, verbose way of saying I have nothing to say. Much appreciated...now piss off, and lets get back to the issue of the day. I suspect Pat probably likes hurling abuse in the same way that those who disagree with Pat similarly enjoy the pursuit, a clear win win situation.
PS. That still makes you a misguided fool pat, sorry, no escaping the fact
well put indyhead! i'm hoping electronic voting will allow me to vote twice. up to now i always get asked for identification.
how about online voting?
Just be Padraig C and you can have a second vote!
"Could someone from the IRSP (or anyother of the other terrorist parties SF, RSF, etc) please tell me why they wish to isolate Protestents?"
That would be news to the Protestant members of the IRSP and the INLA. We're anti-Loyalism, not anti-Protestant
"or is it that you're right-wing catholic fundementalists?"
I'm sure some Republicans are conservative Catholics, but that doesn't really describe any members of the IRSM.
I was told lots as a kid that I was a west-brit.
West-Brit education and interests and accent.
I chose to go on with my work and life using a gaelicisation of my name because I wanted people outside of Ireland (where I was called a WestBrit) to consider Irish culture. Also because I thought such a version of the name (Iosaf not Seosaimh would be better for my jewish/arabic/african readers, and I couldn´t bear to think how English/Italian/German beurocrats would say Seosaimh) and I saw the anagrams: Iosaf Macdiarmada = If Osama mad IRA cad.
And I thought that was very funny and witty and clever and the cat´s pyjamas. But I sometimes wondered would some think it more than just very funny witty and clever. Well it´s only that. [There are lots of other anagrams in there too] but it was meant in its cleverness to bring attention to the kneejerk reaction made by most to certain groupings and theri followers.
I, myself, mise feín, think that many groups on the lunatic fringe have the memberships they do as a result of temporary reactions to contemporary events. The youngsters love the easy answers of the SWM, the workers of urban Ireland love the approach of the SP, in the last century countless people were moved to republican politicisation in mostly the North of Ireland but the south as well. The various IRA groupings and INLA/IPLO grew out of the political ciricumstances of Irish and British history.
But so too did Loyalism and its factions. I would hope that we are now at a point in Irish history to move the "national question debate" forward as a whole, all of us, the big lunatic fringe family. Ireland is a crucial geo-political economic entity, the source of its unhappiness might still be analysed by different people to be caused by different others but really "The British" alone are no longer the prinicile concern. For the British themselves have been subverted by supping with the American Devil, they really didn´t use a long enough spoon now did they? So I think there´s room for everyone on the newswire. But everyone means everyone. Many of the family seem to be slightly put off by the sheer volume of recent IRSP postings. But I believe such things come and go in waves no?
Now WestBrit is an insult and we on the lunatic fringe do insult each other lots don´t we, but we collecively give the others not on the lunatic fringe better than we get. I know the IRSP aren´t going to go away, nor do I really wish them to, O´Hare is a political prisoner and his case does deserve mention, but many other issues such as "punishment" attacks are difficult for many people to take. And those who support such action must be prepared to bear criticism for them.
And finally I´d like to use my favourite seanfhocal which originated in the Reclaim the Genome project, based on over 1200 graffiti representations of Dolly the cloned Sheep as a black sheep on the walls of European cities.
Ná díol caora dhubh, ná ceannaigh caora dhubh, agus ná bí gan caora dhubh.
Neither buy or sell a black sheep and never [never] be without one.
And I´m not a westBrit anymore.
Very few of us were able to grow up in Ireland without being subject to the most extremely powerful moulding circumstances. It is sign of the enduring power of the BBC that its program on Spies is attracting so much interest.
answer=
kill your TV.
90% of all sectarian attacks are againist Catholics.
Where did you get that statistic?
I want to clarify this notion that irrespective of our differences we are all part of some loose happy socialist family. This is not true, I'd give my vote to any of the mainstream Dail parties before i'd even think of supporting the IRSP/INLA.
"90% of all sectarian attacks are againist Catholics.
Where did you get that statistic?"
this is from figures supplied by the pat finucane centre in derry. no one has ever challenged their veracity. they supply an itemised list of attacks on a monthly bassis. the ruc/psni accept these figures as being correct
ACCENTS
iosaf i dont see what accents or education have to do with being west brit. its the political positions you adopt. one of the best socialist republicans i know has what might be described as a west brit accent & had what some might call a west brit education.
west britdom is a state of mind which has nothing to do with education, religion or accent.
Conservatives
"I'd give my vote to any of the mainstream Dail parties before i'd even think of supporting the IRSP/INLA. "
good to see dave d nailing his blue colours to the mast. so hed be happy to support fg, pd, ff then.
I said I'd give them my vote ahead of supporting the INLA. I've already said why I hate the INLA, not liking them does not mean I support the PDs (althougth I'd shag Liz O'Donnell). And its Paul, not Dave.
"I've already said why I hate the INLA, "
well not in any clear way. generalised abuse apart.
Care to provide a link or a report to support those figures Pat.
John,
What is your story? You are defending the IRSP! You do not point out problems with them and republicanism when it's debated, instead you put up postings about 'respect' for other groups.
You call yourself a socialist? and you wont even engage in debate with nationalist and their wrong approach, you wont say that terrorism is not correct.
In my opinion the ISN is a load of shite 'organisation' made up of a load of wooly liberals that have post-stalinist hang-ups about parties.
Why dont you go off and join the Labour Party?
The Labour party has consistantly engaged with and criticised small-minded nationalists, and the destructive force it is on Irish politics. The INLA/IRSP have rightly got nothing but comtempt and criticism from the party.
John says the INLA have been "constantly harrassed by the Cops north & south" as if that is in some way inherently noble. What a load of complete bollox (again) John, you are lame man indeed.
Murders, child molesters and rapists are also somethimes harrassed by the cops, the reason is simple, what they do is disgusting. Similarly the activities of the INLA are repulsive to most, and rightly their activist get hassle from the cops.
Are we to support everything that is "anti-establishment", no of course not, plenty of idiots, charlatans, and scumbag republican murderers are anti-establishment and all deserve nothing but contempt.
Before I ever considered writing to Indimedia I was warned that I was waisting my time, maybe the person who said so was right.
Personally, I oppose "terrorism" or "armed struggle" because I don't think it will achieve its intended objective and that many working class people will (and have) died as a result of it. Protestant, Catholic, nationalist, loyalist but 9 times out of ten, working class. I believe in uniting the working class. If you think thats wooly well, I couldn't give a s##t.
If you bother looking at any situation in the world where communities have resorted to sustained "terror" or "armed struggle" you will find that there is usually massive injustices that gave birth to such situations.
If you think NI was a wonderful place until the IRA/INLA came along and f**ked it up, well then I understand where you are coming from. If not, you will, as I do, know that the situation and history of the North Eastern part of Ireland is caused by IMPERIALISM specifically British imperialism. If you don't agree then stop writing to indimedia and get a subscription out to the Daily Telegraph or Irish Independent instead. The PIRA/INLA are products of injustices. I am not interested in defending them or their actions I merely state an objective reality.
Yes,I am a republican, I assume the majority of contributors to indimedia are not monarchists, therefore are republicans. I am also a socialist who has argued all my political life against "terrorism". I have also spent lots of my time in Belfast,Newry,Downpatrick,Portadown, Derry talking to people and hearing their stories. Something worth considering.I think it helped me have a greater understanding of the situation in the North.
I think its sad that you can show such a deeply ingrained ignorance of your own country's history I hope none of you are students or formerstudents as this would destroy my faith in third level institutions completely.
stats
you'll get the stats from attacks at:http://www.serve.com/pfc/
john
don't be discouraged you've put forward the logical arguments. all the opposition have done is deliver generalised abuse against the irsp & inla. they also believe the state forces should be allowed to beat up & harass republicans.
these people are scum, but what can you expect from west brit vermin. they wony be happy until the union jack is flying here again.
'West Brit'. I do not like this term as a term of abouse. Why? I spent my school (secondary) years in Dundalk and ended up hanging around in a gang that included punks, kids of Northern people (catholic) who moved to Dundalk in the late 60's/Early 70s (Virtually as refugees)from sectarian harrassment in the North, and two guys who were sons of Irish Catholic) Emigrants to the UK who returned with their families to Dundalk in the 70s and very early 80's.
I saw both guys hospatalised on the streets of Dundalk because of their accents numerous times. Nobody that threatened them and me and others for being their friends, and beat them, (and us sometimes), ever wanted to know about the complexity of their identities. They were 'West Brits' because of their accents and that was just that. Fucking horrible it was and happened over and over. That is why I find West Brit an inadequate way of describing someone and a scary useless term of abuse that has very little to do with promoting understanding of anything. Any suggestions for a different term Pat?
as i have already stated i dont believe westbritdom has anything to do with accent. its a state of mind.
the people i describe as west brit are those who attack republicanism in an irrational manner. they throw around words like fascist but wont say why republicans are fascist.
aparently republicans are fascist because the west brits say they are fascist; therefore republicans are fascist.
west brits believe republicans should be harrased & even beaten up by the state.
Why?
because the west brits dont like republicans. thats why.
blisset, i have no desire to upset you but west brit is a term which correctly descibes these vermin. its not my fault if it was misused elsewhere. bullying happens everywhere.
given your own politics, i think it would be more appropriate for you to take on those self same west brits and point out their contradictions & inaccuracies.
i would rather engage in a rational debate but you won't get that from the pro imperialists on indymedia.
I also want to engage in debate and have no time for imperialism. But you are not dealing with the substance of what I am saying. I understand that you have a political analysis behind your views but I do not believe that using the term 'West Brit' as a term of abuse teaches anyone anything. It is definitely not a clear term describing what it is meant to describe. It is so easily interpreted as an adaptable form of hate speech for those who are 'different'. Not everyone who hears repeats and uses the term has a political analysis to back it up. I would say the majority have not. That is from my personal experiences. You reduce the incidents I recounted to bullying. It was not bullying - it was intolerance of those who are different - justified by the same language you use in political debate. Someone having their face mushed on the street while being called a West Brit or even a Brit just because of their accent is what used to result from this kind of 'speech' in dundalk. Yeah there was bullying but I (with an Irish Accent) was never pounced on by gangs who I didn't know who thought my accent gave them the right to hammer me. I was given the courtesy of one on one scraps by those who chose to pick on me. My friends were not.
Reminds me of the dark days of the 1980's when republicans were routinely referred to as 'animals' and 'subhuman' by pundits in the Section 31 infected media here.
I am not abusing u Pat as I think u know - I am trying to have a conversation - one that I am interested in - and one that i think is important.
i take your point. its best to be clear about these things. in future i'll refer to southern loyalists or some such.
btw
does blisset comprise more than one person. i know there was a long answer before on how anyone could be blisset.
but for practica; purposes is it just eamon?
It is a little broad and open to misunderstanding don't you think?
It to me is like a 'shankhill Butchers' mirror image. Any 'Taig' will do, any 'Brit'will do. It suits the interests of imperialism to have ordinary people 'dehumanise' each other in this way. Reminds me of the words 'gook' and 'frag'.
I got it from Italian People in Social Centres.
It is quite interesting to have a read with search engines about Luther. Look for the Luther Blisset Manifesto.
John says "I think its sad that you can show such a deeply ingrained ignorance of your own country's history I hope none of you are students or formerstudents as this would destroy my faith in third level institutions completely."
You truely are a patronising tosser John, so you think everyone who's educated will naturally have the same opinion as you (presumably then the working classes have an excuse to be ignorant, is that the argument!). As it happens (and I only mention it because John (tosser) brought it up) I have a honours degree in history and politics and a masters in politics, and it is precisely this study which led me to believe that John's interpretation is completely up his arse, along with the analysis of the INLA as an understandable response to injustice. They are scumbags, simple as that, plenty of people suffer injustice, this is no excuse for going out and killing. You can wrap your tacid consent for the INLA in fluffy "working classes unite" crap, it still amonunts to bollox.
From what I can see the ISN are nothing more than a fluffly group of well-educated well to do middle class people that meet up and have a chat about the world over a Cappachino
If you are really marxists ye would have no truck with republicanism and you would be active. Remember the task is not just to interpret the world, it's to change it!
I am from FINGLAS. I left school at 15 to work as a helper on a lorry (£14 per week) you haven't a clue what your talking about. I NEVER set foot inside a university in my life. I certainly dont think that people who have been to University are more intelligent that others probably the opposite, after all their are more graduates in Dail Eireann than non graduates. Why did you assume that I went to University? that says more about you than anything you have written.
...seems to confuse ad hominem attacks with legitimate political debate
What does "ad hominem" mean, does it mean that I simply hurl abuse at INLA idiots, if so I take it as a compliment, better than hurling hand grenades.
As for John, you've changed your tune a bit, now your salt of the earth working class and formal education has no bearing on you political outlook. Fine, frankly I don't really care if your unemployed or work for Shell, all I know is that you're an apologist for the INLA. For that you deserve contempt, end of story.
Stick your indimedia up your arse. Ill not bother with this verbal mastrubation again. Ill stick to talking to people that actually want to change things
goodbye
Below is a link to a short article arguing why socialists should oppose individual terrorism.
http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1909/tia09.htm
John you won't be missed.
John begins with "Stop!
by John - ISN Tue, Nov 5 2002, 11:54am
What purpose does all the above comments serve. I think if people want to argue about the IRSP they should do so off line with the IRSP. The slagging just makes indimedia less interesting for people"
and ends by telling me to fuck off, you truely are a toss pot John. Well it was fun while it lasted!
he is irrelevant. he has made no rational criticisms of either the irsps positions or yours.
>>>IRSP do not put forward the call for nationalisation of the key sectors of the economy.>>You want Ireland to be free from control of "foreign capitalists". But does that mean that Irish capitalists are alright?>>The IRSP do not realise that the tactic of terrorism is a failed tactic.>>Why are you not calling for mass action?>>You fail to see that Protestents will not support a socialist movement that puts forward demands for sectarian right-wing nationalistic "national liberation".<<<
The Protestant members of the IRSP might disagree with such blanket statements.
What makes you think national liberation, i.e. liberating the nation from foreign control and the working class from capitalism, is right wing and nationalistic?
This is the ideological statement passed at the 2000 Ard-Fheis:
This Ard Fheis affirms,
a) that the IRSP is a revolutionary Marxist organization, and that by this we mean that the IRSP believes:
b) Class conflict is the motive force in human history;
c) The IRSP stands unreservedly and exclusively for the interests of the working class against all others;
d) Only the creation of a 32-county Irish socialist republic can provide the means by which Irish national liberation can be realized;
e) That there can be no socialism without national liberation in Ireland, nor can there be national liberation without socialism;
f) That there is no parliamentary road to socialism, because socialism cannot be forged by seizing the bourgeois State apparatus; nor is there a guerilla road to socialism, because a social revolution requires the active participation of the masses; and therefore that a socialist republic can only be established through the mass revolutionary action of the working class in the political, economic, and social spheres;
g) That socialism means the ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange collectively by the entire working class, with an end to wage labour, an end to production for profit and its replacement by a system of production based on human need; and
h) That socialism must be administered democratically by the working class itself, recognising the class dictatorship of the workers, because the vast majority of society is formed by that class. This does not suggest the need for a political dictatorship of a single party. Rather it calls out for a class dictatorship, administered through new working class institutions created to permit the greatest degree of political freedom for all working people.
[IRSP do not put forward the call for nationalisation of the key sectors of the economy.]
The object of the IRSM remains a 32-county socialist republic, wherein the Irish working class will control the means of production, distribution and exchange, administered by the proletariat through workers' democracy.
[You want Ireland to be free from control of "foreign capitalists". But does that mean that Irish capitalists are alright?]
I challenge you to show where the IRSP has ever supported capitalism, native or foreign.
[The IRSP do not realise that the tactic of terrorism is a failed tactic.]
"Armed struggle of 25 years has achieved the Good Friday Agreement. That may be an advance as some could argue, but was it worth it? Will any more big bangs bring us closer to our republican goals? We think not. In the new circumstances now prevailing republican socialists have to renew the struggle on the doorsteps of the people, in the housing estates, in the workplaces, in the factories, in the council chambers and in any elected chambers we succeed in entering." - John Martin, IRSP Political Secretary, 2000 Ard-Fheis
[Why are you not calling for mass action?]
"A socialist republic can only be established through the mass revolutionary action of the working class in the political, economic, and social spheres." - Motion passed at 2000 Ard-Fheis
[You fail to see that Protestents will not support a socialist movement that puts forward demands for sectarian right-wing nationalistic "national liberation".]
The Protestant members of the IRSP might disagree with such blanket statements.
What makes you think national liberation, i.e. liberating the nation from foreign control and the working class from capitalism, is right wing and nationalistic?
Actually John from Finglas was one of the few people worth reading on indymedia in general and the only one worth reading on this thread. Pat C goes on a bit, but sometimes makes an effort to back up his piont of view, other morons like paul s never back up their ill informed rubbish. The Irsp is pretty useless and this was proven yet again during the Nice referendum, this is also the case with the nuts in the swp and most of the sp. A new approach is needed perhaps along the line of social movements? or a fresh analysis like the one conducted by Antonio Negri in his "Empire" bestseller?.