Nice Date Set - October 19th

by E Thu Sep 19, 2002 15:12

very very interesting to see that the vote date this time is going to be on a Saturday. After all the arguments in the run up the last vote and afterwards for the general election to maximize the vote, they ignored this idea and only now with a vote that really matters to them, they call it on a Saturday and not the usual mid week trick so many people (students/workers from outside the cities) couldn’t vote.

Well maybe this time it could backfire on them because I can guess one of the reasons is to get their own support out to vote and to make it easier than before, have it on a Saturday. But on the other hand, it’ll be easier for us to mobilize the radical anti-Nice vote to vote on a Saturday too.

That’s my initial thoughts about this, what do others think?

by Not saying for obvious reasons... Thu Sep 19, 2002 15:16

Also people who are on the register in Dublin AND in their home place can do a quick scurry for Bus Aras after voting in Dublin. Get a weekend away too. He, he.
Not that I would do such a thing - oh No.

by Ruairi Thu Sep 19, 2002 15:20

possibly rallies, actions, info for Busaras and rain stations on Friday night and Saturday morning --- people can read material and think about it on way home.... potential to reach 1000s with possible 10,000s in snowball loop of last minute deciders....

WE CAN TAKE 'EM! WE HAVE TO!

by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Thu Sep 19, 2002 15:25 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

Just to note that the Alliance Against Nice launched today with speakers from all 11 affiliated groups (See below) explaining their arguments against Nice from a progressive, socialist perspective.

The Alliance intends holding public meetings in the major urban centres in the state over the four week campaign as well as press conferences and media events to highlight the left arguments against Nice.

There was a high media turnout with all TV and radio outlets represented and a good few newspapers. The happy coincedence of it being launched on the same day as Bertie set the date ensures I would hope, a good turnout.

On that note, the referendum is now set so RTE have to pursue a policy of equal airtime.

Affiliated groups/individuals are:
Sinn Féin
Greens
Socialist Party
Seamus Healy TD
Tony Gregory TD
Finian McGrath TD
Workers Party
SWP
Mick O'Reilly of the ATGWU
Independent Socialist Network
Independent Socialist Forum Against Nice

by pat c Thu Sep 19, 2002 15:34

in the interests of balance & in keeping with imc comments on other threads; should they not now invite pro nice comments from ff, fg, pd & lab?

anyone who opposes this idea is obviously biased and a silly radical.

the new imc motto:

better independent & redundant rather than radical.

by Ray Thu Sep 19, 2002 16:02

Indymedia doesn't solicit articles or comments from _anyone_.

Nobody asked Mags or Justin to post their articles here, but they know the site is open to them as long as they stay within the editorial guidelines. If they break the guidelines their post will be removed.

If someone from FF or the PDs wants to post a pro-Nice article on here, that's not a problem. If they break the guidelines, their post will be removed.

That's what 'independent' means.

by Graham Caswell Thu Sep 19, 2002 16:23

Pat, why don't YOU invite FF, FG ,Labour, IBEC, the Chamber of Commerce, the Financial Centre Group and all the other establishment corporate crowd to post their Nice II perspectives on Indymedia. That's what the open newswire is for.

Of course, the vast amounts of money these people are spending on paid propoganda for the Yes campaign contrasts with the minimal resources of the No side to indicate that they're not that interested in balance (unlike volunteer, self-financed, commercial-free Indmedia).

So on you go.

by pat Thu Sep 19, 2002 16:24

"Indymedia is a democratic media outlet for the creation of radical, accurate, and passionate tellings of truth."

as i previously pointed out, you should remove the above sentence then.

as a "radical" who is devoted to "passionate tellings of truth" i believe if imc was "a democratic media outlet " then they would let all users decide on policy online rather than meeting like a board of directors.

by pat Thu Sep 19, 2002 16:30

i am involved in libertarians against nice.

i am merely pointing out my disagreements with the (imho) convoluted policy imc are putting forward regarding postings.

its imc who say ibec ff etc are welcome on indymedia.

i'll be picketing the ibec pro nice conference tomorrow, burlington hotel at 1 pm.

be there if you can

by Ray Thu Sep 19, 2002 16:31

That's an argument that would carry a little more weight if you were a regular participant in the online mailing lists, had suggested changes in policy, or had shown some signs of using online methods to suggest change. (If you were on those lists you'd know that there's a semi-regular online chat session to discuss indymedia)

You didn't suggest any of this before the last face-to-face meeting, and you could have made most of the last meeting as well as the anti-Nice one. Boards of directors are hardly the only people to hold meetings in the real world, are they?

by pat Thu Sep 19, 2002 16:44

there you go again.

only the select ones can decide on policy.

did it ever occur to you that imc would have little function if people didn't post articles?

other than the newswire you've got a relatively static site.

i didn't realise that there were only certain times you could make suggestions.

well i've made my suggestion now.

imc are very touchy re criticism.

even the capitalist press allow criticism without you having to be a shareholder.

learn to accept criticism from the outside.

i fear some of the comments re cabals are correct. imc is becoming insular & some of them seem to feel they could run the thing a lot better if they didn't have all those pesky postings.

remember your purpose is to provide "a democratic media outlet".

by Ray Thu Sep 19, 2002 16:58

Anybody, ANYBODY can join the IMC mailing lists, and discuss policy there. If you can read this site, you can join the list.

If you are on the list, then you'll hear about IMC meetings and online chat sessions. If you aren't, you won't.

This is not an insular cabal. There are no barriers to joining. You don't have to be proposed as a member, and you can't be blackballed. There is no secret handshake, and no intiation ceremony. You don't have to swear on a stack of bibles, recite quotes from Marx or Bakunin, prove your bank balance is big enough, or even pay any subs.

There is absolutely NOTHING stopping you from joining the mailing list. Nothing stopping you from taking part in the IRC chats. Nothing stopping you from coming along to any of the meetings. There is no reason for you to BE on the 'outside'. Becoming an 'insider' is a simple matter of sending an e-mail. That's all you have to do, subscribe to the IMC list. How do you think I got involved?

If you want to change editorial policy, or the indymedia mission statement, or anything else about indymedia, then join the list and send an e-mail. That's all you have to do. That's all anyone has to do. Once you do that your voice counts for exactly as much as anyone else on those lists, no more, no less.

What could be more democratic than that, Pat?

by pat Thu Sep 19, 2002 17:09

why are you unable or unwilling to accept criticism?

thats all i'm doing , disagreeing with you.

i consider i contribute to indymedia by posting articles. thats enough of an involvement for me. again, i was under the impression the purpose of imc was to provide a media oulet for a radical telling of the truth. some people get their kicks out running things rather than writing.

i've decided that i'm not going to attend any imc meetings. some people involved there seem to think they are on the board of time-warner-aol.

i don't include ray or blisset or daithi in this.

but the petty minded & spiteful deletion of the shelley ad shows just how meanspirited some of the imc censors are.

again: learn to accept criticism from the outside.

by Ray Thu Sep 19, 2002 17:19

When you say you disagree with indymedia being open to anyone who wants to post here, as long as they stay within the guidelines - that's an opinion, and that's criticism. Fine.

When you say that only a select group of people can set IMC policy, that's simply wrong. You could help set policy if you joined the list and came to meetings.

If you've decided you simply don't want to come to meetings, that's fine. But that's your decision. Nobody is excluding you, you are excluding yourself.

And comparisons to corporate companies are simply silly. Nobody here is paid, nobody is excluding radical opinions, there is no advertising... You are comparing indymedia to biased media because indymedia refuses to be biased. Frankly, that's just silly.

'again: learn to accept criticism from the outside.'

Your criticisms would be taken a lot more seriously if you came into a meeting and made them, rather than shouted them through the window.

by Ruairi Thu Sep 19, 2002 17:25

the battle begins....

I propose that the frontpage of IMC Ireland be devoted to the Nice Treaty ref, probably the most significant development in Ireland since the 70s.

The frontpage could have a list of main pt.s and debates from reps of both sides, links to sites and articles and relevant posts.

This could also be a great opportunity for IMC to become better known in a wider circle and to develop a reputation for unbiased and much needed journalism.....

again, I am not in a position to help with this which isn't much use but I encourage anyone with the time and skills to help out in whatever way possible.

by Paul - Gluaiseacht Fri Sep 20, 2002 01:14

As mentioned on RTE news , i really do believe also that the date of October 19th was called fully for the advantage of the "Yes" campaign . For one reason it is exact date( right to the day) of the minimum possible time that the government could have the referendum in , which as RTE news said , gives the No campaign less time to argue back to the government's statements and propaganda .

It's been said before , but a government should represent the best interest of its people , and if the majority voted No , no matter how damiging potentially or "realisticly" that may be to this state , the government should stand up for its people , not just wink at Europe and spend more money this time on propaganda .

As far as my memory serves me , i also do believe that the first major protest to highlight the breeching of our neutrality was meant to be held on the 19th at Shannon airport , or sometime after ... which would have had a strong influence for the No Campaign .
The 19th is not just some random day I think .

by Aunty Party Fri Sep 20, 2002 01:55

People have being saying since day one that "okay fine you have issues and problems with Indymedia" Fine then come on board and play a role and shape the direction of Indymedia, make it your media.

You've essentially responded with "No not gonna", and "why can't you guys accept criticism"

Because Pat you seem intent on attacking Indymedia and when members of the collective go, yeah okay well get involved, you respond by saying why can't you take criticism??

Pat what do you want your criticism to accomplish? I mean if you really had this issue and wanted to change things surely you'd take the opportunity presented to you and work to change Indymedia.

But you won't and don't why? Essentially Pat you're a deconstructive whinger. Unable to offer or create anything good, you spend your time critizing and finding fault without ever bothering to build or create an alternative. Well Indymedia have offered you an alternative and you've turned your nose up at it in disgust.

What do you think your bitching is going to accomplish? What do you think your whinging will achieve. Would it not be better to work and make something better out of a democratic media, which has invited your contribution over and over again.

You say by posting you contribute. Fine then post but don't post, and then leap in and critise Indymedia editorial at your whim and then attack indymedia while ignoring their offers.

This is just obnoxous.........

by Ray Fri Sep 20, 2002 09:07

- I propose that the frontpage of IMC Ireland be devoted to the Nice Treaty ref

We're hoping/planning to set up a separate site which will be dedicated to Nice, so that all the articles and debates are in one place and easy to find. (and also to serve as a test run for Dada)

Watch this space...

by o as if = iosaf - rts Fri Sep 20, 2002 13:59 somewhere on the pyrennes 0044 79 79 324 324

the date is set.
the alliance is prepared.
umbrella
of
green block---------------eco heads & SF
white block---------------pacifist and spirituals
black block---------------anarchists & RTS
and
red block.------------alphabet soup. :-) [love ye]

now get your creative young minds together and agit-prop the majority Irish state.
We (the people of Europe) are looking to the Irish voters (a small electorate which disenfranchises its diasopria) to say NO.
exchange ideas this weekend.
if FF and PD or their equivalents used IMC networks the world over, we would have the option of buying shares. Go ask the IMC folk on Sunday for the background of "our free" network.

under your feet.

by Mags Sat Sep 21, 2002 18:45

I was waiting for a night bus last night in College Green when some guys went past with FF posters, this was about 00.20am. Myself and a friend made loud comments about FF, but only when the guys had gone past did we realise they had the name of some company on the back of their luminous vests. So they were just some kids hired to out up these posters under cover of night. Pretty dire the posters are too, with Fianna Fail in very small writing at the bottom, in the hope that we won't notice it, no doubt.
In south Dublin there are also 'Yes' posters up saying 'We are better off in Europe', as if the vote was about seceding to join Asia or something.
I quite like the 'No' posters with the gun to the guys head, though I reckon there will be a lot of media outrage about them.

by pat c Mon Sep 23, 2002 11:17

i took a few days off indymedia & am not suprised by the responses from ray & aunty party.

-i'm shouting thru a window.

- i'm a whinger.

you guys just don't seem to think that anyone from the outside has any right to comment on you.
you are degenerating day by day. now even postings about a bloody sunday film & a book on shelley don't fit in with your "guidelines".

you display all the classical symptoms of a cult.

1. There is one supreme leader who deletes articles at a whim.

2. There is the inner circle of acolytes who meet to discuss the theology & censorship of imc.

3. there is the wider circle of initiates who get "consulted" on the lists.

4. Those outside the lists are profane.

5. This results in a closed loop system which is self reinforcing. The censorship becomes more arbitary.

6. Anyone who is not an initiate cannot be right, there is no salvation outside of imc.

7. Therefore anyone outside of imc has no right to criticise imc.

8. Anyone who does dare to criticise imc must be attacked & abused.

What will you lot be banning next?

Wise up before you end up wearing robes & selling software in the streets. beware of any messianic imc leader who asks you all to drink "lemonade" from a cauldron.

The saucers will collect you from Stephens Green on Halloween.

by Lukas Sun Oct 20, 2002 08:29 polluk at poczta dot fm

Thank you Irland. Poland love you!!!!!!!