Please Join Globalise Resistance!

by path in exile Mon Mar 25, 2002 12:34

you dont need to join any organisation to be a revolutionary. dont become a party drone, have your own party...

by Michael Ronan O'Connell - Globalise Resistance Mon Mar 25, 2002 14:45 michaeloconnell2001 at yahoo dot com

I agree, obviously, “you dont need to join any organisation to be a revolutionary”. But as revolutionary individuals, even as revolutionary organiasations, that stand ALONE, then we are WEAK. But “TOGETHER” we are STRONG. And something for the capalists to REALLY start worrying about.

Note the terminology I used in my statement, “Please Join or BECOME PART OF Globalise Resistance. The main thing really is to get on the GR e-mail list, such that when there are ANY events organized by ANY organization or individual, one can quickly disseminate the information to ALL other “lefties”, environmentalists etc.

GR, rather than having its own specific philosophies, is united in what we “STAND AGAINST”. And I think to this end, everyone here in indymedia would agree with, eg:-

- Anti the policies of George Bush Jr.
- Anti war / pro peace
- Anti the global arms industry
- Drop the third world debt
- Fair trade not free trade
- Fair terms of trade for the Third World
- Protect/Save the environment
- Lift the sanctions on the Iraqi people
- Anti-racism
- Anti Sweat shop labour

Etc. etc. etc.

Capitalism is EXTREMELY powerful. Its going to take a MIGHTY, UNITED, effort to take it down, be under no illusion. But this I am confident WILL be done. The question is “how long is it going to take and how many more lives have to die before it will happen”. Each life that is lost is a human tragedy unto itself. And I personally feel ashamed of myself if I have not done as much as I could have to save this life.

Yours sincerely,

Michael Ronan O’Connell.
087-9212272
[email protected]

by Paul Kinsella - Globalise Resistance Mon Mar 25, 2002 15:53 paulkinsella53 at yahoo dot com 53 Lorcan Grove, Santry, Dublin 9, Eire 087 - 9748511

I agree with Michael O'Connell's from Globalise Resistance, Cork's views both on last Saturday's Anti racism Rally/March in Dublin and on the wider issue of the Urgency of Launching a United Anti capitalist globalisation/capitalism Campaign. This is more important than ever now that capitalism is in serious trouble and is dying. September 11TH may have postponed the day of reckoning and allowed the dying beast of capitalism to stagger on for a little while longer but it's days are well and truely numbered. This may not happen overnight, it could take years, but it will happen mark my word! Of course a wounded animal is the most dangerous and violent of the lot and expect a hell of a lot more State violence, repression, enforced privatisation, GATTS etc whilst capitalism is in it's death throes.

Unity is Strength! Take for example the Anti racism Campaign. There have been several reasonable sized Anti racist Demos in Dublin over the last few years. Thats why Unity is Important! Whilst at the same time Respecting Our Diversity which is such a Strong Point of the Anti capitalist Movement. The most impressive Anti racist Demo of the lot was the Mayday Demo in Dublin in 2000. This was the biggest of all the Mayday Demos that I had been on over the previous 5 years. It was certainly the Only Mayday Demo that had over 1,000 people on it! For once the Dublin Council of Trade Unions actually had an imaginative topic for the Mayday Demo. All the Anti racist organisations such as the Anti Nazi League and Anti Facist Action were present on the Demo that day. People might remember it! It was the day when the Sustainable Cities People who were having an Alternative Mayday down at the Civic Offices marched down the Quays to join up with the Mayday Demo at Liberty Hall and further swelled the attendance. That's the kind of Unified Action that we need and Not Just in Dublin either!

Coming back to the Need for Unity Certainly on the Main Key Issues that Unite Us (There's more that Unites than Divides Us!), it is very disheatening both for those who participate in a March and also for the organisers of the Demo when despite of all the very hard work that they've put into organising and publicising the Demo that you only get a small number of people turning up. Unfortunately I've been on far too many of those such Demos down the years including last Saturday's Protest. Fair play and congratulations to Socialist Youth for pulling out all the stops over the last few weeks in publicising yesterday Demo. In addition to notices on IMC there was also a very extensive postering campaign. There were loads of posters publicising last Saturday's Rally plastered all over Ranelagh, Clonskeagh, Goatstown, Kilmacud, Stillorgan, the Stillorgan Road and Donnybrook in addition to lots of posters in the City Centre. Then only a very small but very eager crowd turns up. I know several other people apart from myself who are very disillusioned when this unfortunately all far too often regularly happens! It does put people off from participating in future Protests because they think that all Protests are always going to have the same small turnouts. Finally to end on a much more positive note it was very encouraging that other Left Wing Organisations, including Globalise Resistance and the Anarchist Federation turned out for last Saturday's Anti racist Demo in Dublin. Please Join Globalise Resistance! Unity! Thats Our Strength! Whilst respecting Our Differences at the Same Time!

by r Mon Mar 25, 2002 18:32

"The united front is a way for a tiny minority to win over lots of people: Globalise Resistance is a united front." - SWP speaker at Marxism 2001 (in the UK).

infoshop.org

by Paul Kinsella - Globalise Resistance Mon Mar 25, 2002 18:54 paulkinsella53 at yahoo dot com 53 Lorcan Grove, Santry, Dublin 9, Eire 087-9748511

Here we have more sectarian nonsense from somebody who won't even give their full name (r)! Who the hell is r? Anyhow the Title says it all: "Globalise Resistance is NOT an SWP front (At least NOT in Ireland!)!" I know there have been problems with GR in the UK that it was being more or less used as a Socialist Workers Party PR publicity front. However things are a bit different here in Ireland! Of course they're SWP activists active in GR, but they are also people involved from the Green Party and others involved in a personal capacity from groups such as the Worker's Party, as well as those who are non-aligned to any political group. I should know because I know some of these people myself. BTW I'm NOT a member or a supporter of the SWP myself!

by 8den Mon Mar 25, 2002 20:14

For starts......

This is not news. This is a recruitment drive. If Fianna Fail posted something like this to the newswire you'd fall over each other condemning it.

Globalise Resistance, like the Anti Facist league before it was set up in part by the SWP.

It's a front, to co-op a movement.

The idea that we must, have to join Globalise Resistance as it is THE ONLY WAY (to co-op your childish propaganda)is false.

Globalise resistance (some of them anyway, I count members of the group as friends) want you to believe it's the only way.

Paul and Michael will argue that it's different in Ireland than in the UK, that Globalise Resistance is a rainbow of groups rings hollow when you see that they are using the exact scare mongering (Join Globalise Resistance or be doomed) that the GR in the UK have used. And it's breaking the back of the movement in the Uk. Should I go into some of the backpeddling and behaviour of GR at the labour party conference protests?

It's intimidation of sorts. Telling people that they're wasting their time if they don't jump on board and become a good little foot solidier.

While not opposed to your group or your policy. I'll kindly ask you not to pollute the newswire with this blatant biased propaganda.

You're proving to me that everything I fear about GR is coming true.

8den.

PS Paul, you don't need to give your full name and address for your opinions to be valid.

by Serox - Independent Mon Mar 25, 2002 21:49

...like a scene from Monthy Pythons Holy Grail...

Splitters anyone?

Joining SWP or GR will make no difference.

SWP, "like hungry dogs, throw them anything (and I godamn mean ANYTHING) and they'll eat it up"
Serox

by 8den Tue Mar 26, 2002 00:00

And Michael for fucks sake do you realise how idiotic you and Paul sound?

Constantly wittering on about how Globalise Resistance is a different entity from the SWP and then what do you do?

YOU GAVE THE SWP AS THE CONTACT ADDRESS!!!!!!!

If you can't even give a seperate contact address...... We don't need to prove our point you're doing a great job doing it for us.

Resistance is universal diversity of voice, action and groups makes us stronger.

8den

by Voice of Experience Tue Mar 26, 2002 00:36

I'd like to go along with Paul and Michael on this, but long experience has taught me otherwise.

I have to ask Paul and Michael a question or two:

Do you accept that the SWP operates front groups as a tactic more generally (eg the ANL)?

If your answer is no, then there probably isn't much point in continuing this until you learn for yourselves.

If your answer is yes, then I have to ask you why you think Globalise Resistance is different?

Paul seems to imply that GR isn't a front because there are other people involved. This seems to miss the point spectacularly. The reason why you set up a front in the first place is to get other people who usually wouldn't touch you with a shitty stick involved. If GR didn't have some other people in it, it would be a very bad front.

What matters is who calls the shots, and in the case of GR that is the SWP.

GR exists to supply a stream of recruits to the SWP and to give the SWP some control over what little there is of an anti-globalisation movement in Ireland. The instant it ceases to fill those roles it will be wound up.

More generally, Michael makes a plea for left wing unity. Leaving GR aside, I can empathise with the impulse behind his attitude.

I can remember wondering myself why the whole left couldn't unite into one group. If you don't wonder that when you first get politically active there's probably something wrong with you. If you still wonder that after seeing the various groups and individuals in operation for a while, then there CERTAINLY is something wrong with you.

The SWP's primary political activity is selling the paper and recruiting. Because students are easier to recruit than workers, it bases itself around students. Because most of its members are students, recent ex-students and full time officials, and because that is where it always sees the next recruit coming from it, bases its attitudes around well meaning student and middle class world views.

Because all of the decisions are made at the top, and ordinary members are just there to do the postering and leafleting, and because most of those members are middle class people going through a well meaning phase, most members only last for a short period. Because members only last a short period, constant recruitment is needed. All nice and circular, y'see?

And because your always looking for the next recruit, every issue and campaign can only be stuck with as long as it is the juiciest supply of recruits. And because ditching the last campaign is so necessary, distrust is earned. And because people distrust the SWP, they won't go near it. And because they won't go near it, the SWP has to pretend to be somebody else to get near its recruits. And then you get the ANL and GR and the Rathmines branch of the SWP becoming the "Rathmines branch of the Alliance for a No Vote" when it wants to hold a public meeting.

And of course that earns the SWP more distrust. And the distrust the SWP has earned, along with its preoccupation with student recruitment and the hysterical pitch of its politics, prevents it from picking up any real support from the working class. Which leads, amongst other things, to derisory electoral results. And more to the point, it leads to more and more delusionary behaviour, as comforting lies have to be told to each other to prevent demoralisation. So the working class is supposedly always just on the verge of starting to look towards the SWP, and the anti-capitalist movement which is actually an encouraging start becomes the biggest thing ever! Since time began! And this in turn drives people away and the circle continues to turn.

It would almost be funny if it didn't turn people away from any useful activism and burn them out.

by Paul Kinsella - Globalise Resistance Tue Mar 26, 2002 03:44 paulkinsella53 at yahoo dot com 53 Lorcan Grove, Santry, Dublin 9, Eire 087-9748511

Sorry for not responding to this increasingly viciously sectarian debate till now, but Unlike Some of you'se I was Actually Doing Something Positive, i.e I was at an Irish Anti War Movement Activists Meeting tonight Planning for the National Anti war Demo Against the CONTINUING war against Afghanistan and the Planned Extension of the war to Iraq and the possible use of 1st Strike Nuclear Weapons against 7 Countries by the US, taking place in Dublin at 3pm on Saturday 27TH April. So afterwards we had a few pints (is that allowed!?), and before anybody tries to slur me I'm NOT drunk!

Right lets start! For starts, 8den Mon, Mar 25 2002, 7:14pm, "If Fianna Fail posted something like this to the newswire you'd fall over each other condemning it." Well you're wrong! Fianna Failure, much as I hate them have EVERY RIGHT TO POST ON THE IMC NEWSWIRE, JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE! This Thank God is a DEMOCRATIC Media Outlet! If Fianna Failure do post something up here, which I wouldn't rule out giving their record I would just refute their propaganda, Clean and Square and Fair! It's as simple as that!

Oh one more thing! 8den Mon, Mar 25 2002, 11:00pm I challenge you to say where I (Paul Kinsella) EVER!!!! EVER!!! as you (Incorrectly!!!!)!!! state "YOU GAVE THE SWP AS THE CONTACT ADDRESS!!!!!!!" I can't find ANYWHERE on ANY of MY postings where I "GAVE THE SWP AS THE CONTACT ADDRESS!!!!!!!" I'll Repeat and I'll Keep On Repeating till I'm blue in the face: "I'M NOT A MEMBER OR A SUPPORTER OF THE SWP!!!!!!!" Got it! Actually I very much feel like revealing what Party I'm in, but I'll refuse to do so for the moment, except to say that it has a similar title to the SWP. Nuff said!

Sorry if this is a rant, but I'm LEGALLY Entitled to Defend MY Good Name. Criticism, even if its vicious and harsh is very welcome, but when I'm falsely alleged to have said something that I DIDN'T, I am LEGALLY Entitled to Defend MY Good Name by whatever means necessary!!!!!!! As regards Serox - Independent Mon, Mar 25 2002, 8:49pm, if you can't contribute anything positive, don't bother! Voice of Experience Mon, Mar 25 2002, 11:36pm does make some positive and interesting comments and I will have a proper and positive dialogue with you in the morning.

Good night!

by Nancy - Gluaiseacht Tue Mar 26, 2002 11:26 Limerick

Gluaiseacht has never joined GR. It doesn't mean events haven't sometimes been organised between us. I agree ...this is all propaganda + a recruitment drive.

Be yourself, represent yourself, be aware, be responsible, take action. That's what counts.

Nancy

by Paul Kinsella's Evil Twin - Satire Tue Mar 26, 2002 11:40

Hello there Activists my name is PAUL KINSELLA and I'm here to Tell You about how i am Annoying People everywhere I Go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I've already managed to Become a Pain on Global IR and the Indymedia Editorial list (Sectarian Nonsense!!!!!!!) and now i'm Doing it Here too. This is NOT a rant and anyone who Says so will hear one of my "not rants" in Return.

This website is Great because I can SOUND LIKE (!!!!!) i Am someone Important when in Fact I am Nothing more than a Sympathiser who has never Done anything of Note. Of course, I go to Meetings when all you People who have the SECTARIAN CHEEK!!! to Disagree with Me are sitting around at Home. No I am NOT a member NOT a member of the SWP I just like to talk about them and Defend every Stupid Thing they do!!!!!!! I think that Globalise Resistance (wonderful PEOPLE dedicated to destroying CAPITALISM, at least i can Spell it not like that Michael O'Carroll) could get someone a little more Coherent and Responsible to defend Them, otherwise the Argument will be Won by those SECTARIAN ANONYMOUS people who don't Give their Phone Number on every Post. Someone will Ring me some Day, i've Had the Mobile for ages and No-one ever Calls, even to tell me how Foolish i Am thinking that Using these Long Sentences! to make a dumb Argument is actually Getting Anywhere.

What??? Did you Say that this is Irrelevant? How dare You. This is an OPEN and DEMOCRATIC website which Means that i can Pretend to speak on Behalf of GLOBALISE RESISTANCE (did I mention that i Am not a Member of the swp?) and even indymedia Itself. Let's go have a March and solve All our Problems.

by 8deb Tue Mar 26, 2002 12:56

1. As I pointed out MICHAEL (To re use your tedious writing style) gave SWP as the contact address, so drop your hackles. The pair of you claiming that SWP and GR are utterly independent and then he goes and does that, just proves what we've been saying.

And the Fianna Fail. I never said Fianna Fail weren't welcome to post, but this kind of blatant indiscriminate, advertising of any organisation should not be tolerated. Thats what I said, don't try and twist it.

The implication that you're the only one doing anything of note. Again I've noticed this is a common tactic of yours, imply a slur, anyone not with you is a waster and shouldn't be listened to. How do you know these people don't work hard on other orgainisations? Everyone can work in their own way. And quit the whinging about the pints, what are you trying to prove?

As for you announcement about criticism, for someone who posts so frequently you're very thin skinned.

8den

by Finghin - Socialist Youth Tue Mar 26, 2002 18:52

You do not need to be in an organisation to be a revolutionary, but in order to be an effective revoultionary you DO need to be in an organisation. That is why I am in Socialist Youth.

History is littered with examples of failed revolutions due to the lack of an organised working class. A revolutionary party is essential for a revolution to take place.

The question is, is GR that organisation? I would argue that it is not. It is a valuable group that brings together many on the left and can co-ordinate many actions. But it is not a truely revolutionary organisation. It has no base amongst the working class which is only truely revolutionary class, it remains a group of youth/students/ acedemics and individual revolutionaries, there is nothing wrong with this in the slightest, just that this means GR is not a revolutionary organisation.

Another flaw of GR is that it is dominated by the SWP, and does effectivly operate as a cover group. There are no clear structures, who makes the political and practical decisions in the organisation? Are these people elected and how are they elected?

I am not being sectarian here, I am just bringing up legitimate concerns and points.

by jimmy - none Tue Mar 26, 2002 20:05

Monopolise Resistance? - how Globalise Resistance would hijack revolt...

The anti-capitalist movement is at a key point in its development. Three years ago it hardly existed. The next three years will be crucial. This is why we ve decided to make public our fears that all this good work could be undone by people who have nothing to do with this resistance but instead want to take it over for their own ends.

This pamphlet is an attempt to show why the Socialist Workers Party and Globalise Resistance are trying to do just that. While working closely with respectable anti-globalisation groups, the SWP/GR increasingly attack those involved in direct action, describing us - just as the gutter press does - as disorganised, mindless hoodlums obsessed with violence. They are willing to make these attacks so they can portray themselves as more organised and, therefore, the best bet if you think capitalism stinks and want to do something about it.

They are nothing of the sort. They want to kill the vitality of our movement - with the best of intentions, of course - and we need to organise better in the face of this threat.

http://www.schnews.org.uk/mr.htm

BTW if people are into open, anti authoritarian, non hierarchal organising check out
http://grassrootsgathering.freeservers.com
The second Grassroots Gathering is taking place
this weekend in Cork. If you don?t know what
the Grassroots Gathering is then have a look at
http://grassrootsgathering.freeservers.com

This mail is an update on the initial
announcement consisting of a more detailed
agenda and accommodation details.

Agenda (via Nancy.L.Serrano
[email protected] )

March 29 - 7.30pm evening intro session, PGA
talk, followed by socializing mania!

March 30th - 11am - 7pm workshops 2/3 parallel
sessions

March 31st - some buses will be provided to go
to Kinsale to the Old Head!

Definite workshops:

- People's Global Action - intro to the truely
worldwide movement
- Alternative economic organisations -
ecological, ethical money..possible?
- Criminalisation of activists - you terrorist,
me activist
- Animal rights - helping our fury and scaley
friends
- Where to after Sept. 11th? - more plane-proof
skyscrapers please!
- Gender + activism - men are from mars..Women
rather they'd stayed there!
- Drumming - community co-operation in practise!
- Yoga - do da twist baby!
- Meditation - in case you wanna catch some
winks! AHEM..reach a higher level...
- Non-hierarchical orgs. - working
practicalities, reclaiming our lives back from
never-ending MEETINGS!
- Moulding our New World - dirty, sticky,
gundgey clay workshop!
- Techniques of direct action, non violence -
for No to War campaign, flag that plane down!

by Paul Kinsella - Globalise Resistance, Irish Anti War Movement, ATGWU (Strictly Personal capacity) and Various Others Wed Mar 27, 2002 00:51 paulkinsella53 at yahoo dot com 53 Lorcan Grove, Santry, Dublin 9, Eire 087-9748511

Voice of Experience does make a lot of good, useful and helpful comments that many would do well to heed. For a start you obviously would like to see at the very least some level of Left-Wing Co-Operation between the various very small Left groups in Ireland. This at least would be a very welcome and positive development. That's why some people set up the Socialist Alliance, but unfortunately because of bickering between the SWP and the Socialist Party the Socialist Alliance had to be wound up last November. A lot of us myself included were bitterly disappointed at this and all because the Socialist Party and the SWP couldn't get on with each other in the Socialist Alliance. Anyhow that unfortunately was the end of the Socialist Alliance in it's current phase, but it will be and it has to be resurrected and hopefully fairly soon. The Left in Ireland is small enough as it is without having vicious sectarian infighting and squabbling between the various small Left groups in Ireland.

by Paul Kinsella - Globalise Resistance, Irish Anti War Movement, ATGWU (Strictly Personal capacity) and Various Others Wed Mar 27, 2002 01:55 paulkinsella53 at yahoo dot com 53 Lorcan Grove, Santry, Dublin 9, Eire 087-9748511

Finghin - Socialist Youth also raises many points that we do need to ponder about very seriously. Firstly you're right when you say that "You do not need to be in an organisation to be a revolutionary, but in order to be an effective revolutionary you DO need to be in an organisation." Well said Finghin! The Only way that a Revolution will Ever succeed is by having an Organised Working Class. Therefore an Organised Revolutionary Organisation is Essential for a Revolution to take place.

You're also right when you say that one of the major flaws of Globalise Resistance is that unfortunately "It has no base amongst the working class which is the only truely revolutionary class," unfortunately as you say "it remains a group of youth/students/ acedemics and individual revolutionaries, there is nothing wrong with this in the slightest." These are well meaning and well intentioned people, but if we're serious about Mobilising the Working Class for Revolution, Working Class People Must make up the Vast Bulk of the Membership of Any Revolutionary Organisation.

by Andrew Wed Mar 27, 2002 13:12

Finegan said
"History is littered with examples of failed revolutions due to the lack of an organised working class. A revolutionary party is essential for a revolution to take place."

The problem is history is even more littered with examples of various revolutionary parties either scuppering a revolution because of infighting (eg Portugal or France in '68) or even worse coming to power and promptly turning on the working class and the left (eg the Bolsheviks in 1918). Not only the average members but many of the leaders of such left groups (and the SP/SY is one) are unaware any of this happened and seem to belive all was rosy until bad old uncle Stalin came along and locked up Cinderella (woops I mean icepicked Trotsky).

Check out the link above and you'll see the same sort of processes at work (with much nastier consequences) as you see in GR/SWP/SP/WP/Sparts/SD etc, etc, etc This is surprizingly relevant to the movement today in understanding why so may of the left parties engage in what is obviously counter produtive methods of organisation that just piss people off

by Pure as Snow - Golden Autonome Wed Mar 27, 2002 14:50

na na na na na
we're not playing with anybody who doesn't agree with us

Leninists, reformists, Greens etc
only the 6 of us in the Anarchist party have the true answer

by Badman Wed Mar 27, 2002 16:31

The title says it all, when you start saying "nah nah nah boo boo" to anarchists, it can appear to observers that perhaps you have run out of arguments.

Anarchists have principles, we will participate with anybody if we think it will bring the working class even one milimetre closer to the free socialist world we desire. Obviously we are free to decide that helping to gain recruits for the front of a (to us) noxious authoritarian organisation does not fulfill this criterion.

Badman

by Paul Kinsella - Globalise Resistance Wed Mar 27, 2002 17:47 paulkinsella53 at yahoo dot com 53 Lorcan Grove, Santry, Dublin 9, Eire 087-9748511

I think that basically what Michael O'Connell was saying was that this is terrible, namely the sectarianism and bickering isn't it? And he was also saying that he wouldn't mind if it was only a few but sadly these guys are indicative of the feelings of many people out there. I agree with Michael on this and furthermore I also agree with him on this, he was also saying that it will be hard to get the Left to Unite in Some Way but we must NEVER GIVE UP! He also said and I hope I've got his drift right that Ultimately Globalise Resistance may not be the Ultimate Organisation that provides a Rallying Point for Anti capitalists of ALL sizes, shapes and hues. Only time will tell!

Again and I hope that I'm not quoting Michael O'Connell out of context I believe that what he was saying was that to achieve Maximum Success that he thinks every Organisation must nominate ONE person to be their Spokesperson. And then these people must come TOGETHER and start a United Organisation TOGETHER. NO one party must be the founder, or the pusher of the Organisation. ALL must start it together, at the same time and I agree totally with Michael's views on this. This is probably the only way to get around the small mindedness that exists out there. But GR will have given a GREAT push for this Unified Organisation to happen so in that sense GR, besides all that it has already achieved, has and will be a great success No Matter which Organisation ultimately becomes the Focus Point for ALL Anti capitalists whether or not that be Globalise Resistance or not.

ONE WAY OR ANOTHER, CAPITALISM MUST BE BEATEN!

by Michael Ronan O'Connell - Globalise Resistance Wed Mar 27, 2002 20:18 michaeloconnell2001 at yahoo dot com

There are a number of points I would like to raise from having read a fair bit of the above:-

1. My main point is, do people believe in principle that it is a good thing that we all work with one another in some format in bringing down capitalism, globalization etc.??

I do not care if it is Globalise Resistance (though it would be a shame to have to lose the name!) or whoever that achieves this.......but I feel that something needs to achieve this.

Your comments please.

2. Are we all more or less on the same team or do we even hate ourselves????

3. Do we have a common enemy or are we all fighting differnet people???

4. Why can't people leave their real names? who they are with? and an email address? I do not understand this.

5. Do my critics here and the critics of Globalise Resistance accept that I "genuinely" want a forum in which we can work at some level together?? or do people think that I have a hidden agenda in trying to recruit people for the SWP??

6. My sincere apolagies to Nancy in Gluaiseacht for saying they were a part of GR. I had assumed it from the times we have worked together in the past.

7. 8dens question to me "how do I find the time for all this activism and ranting (as he calls it)" - hard work.

8. All this pessimism, negativeness, suspicion, critisizms etc. etc........I find really dissapointing and dis-heartening......I come from a capatilist background myself in which my family have made a lot of money........sometimes I feel to hell with all this and buy a villa in Spain and enjoy the fruits of capitalism instead of straining within the forces that are trying to bring it down........hopefully our in-fighting will not prevent its downfall but I think this is questionable......

9. At least one thing, this item has provoked 22 comments, much more than any other from the ones I went back through.....so it least it has provoked debate!......this site really needs, as I think I mentioned earlier......a debate forum where we can trash out these issues.

Anyhow, good wishes to all.......keep up the good work......we'll bring down this murderous, bloody, system ONE WAY OR ANOTHER......and free the downthroden, oppressed people of this world and indeed the very world itself...

Good luck!

Mike.

by Lark - www.mcspotlight.org Wed Mar 27, 2002 20:38 gerarddonaghy at Hotmail dot com

All this talk about unity is strength and acting as one etc. sounds like life threatening authoritarian nonsense, it's just like all the god damn moronic 'revolutionaries' in history,

you know there was a conference in the US once where some situationists (arty anarchists) put in quotes from Mussolini into one of the socialist unity, leadership, strength style speeches and it went down a storm altogether, the audience loved it, I think that says a lot about the audience and I think the same thing would happen today if you gave the speech to an audience in Ireland,

instead of being such great radical posers and consumers of the manufactured dissent (oh, I'm a member of this, this and this, I've more Rage Against the Machine T-shirts than you, look I can dress scruffy and look poor I must be a real prole),

try doing something boring and fucking worthwhile like setting up a tenants group or something, although I know all that constructive stuff isnt half as cool and trendy as bitching, moaning and going to parades,

Cheers,

Lark

by Paul Kinsella - Globalise Resistance Wed Mar 27, 2002 22:19 paulkinsella53 at yahoo dot com 53 Lorcan Grove, Santry, Dublin 9, Eire 087-9748511

Re the article "monopolise resistance"
by Lark or should that be Gerald Donaghy. Can I make a few comments?

Firstly the term of abuse "monopolise resistance" is a very trite, stale and hackneyed slur that was got straight from the Irishanarchism Yahoo! discussion list

- www.mcspotlight.org Wed, Mar 27 2002, 7:38pm
[email protected]

All this talk about unity is strength and acting as one etc. sounds like life threatening authoritarian nonsense, it's just like all the god damn moronic 'revolutionaries' in history,

you know there was a conference in the US once where some situationists (arty anarchists) put in quotes from Mussolini into one of the socialist unity, leadership, strength style speeches and it went down a storm altogether, the audience loved it, I think that says a lot about the audience and I think the same thing would happen today if you gave the speech to an audience in Ireland,

instead of being such great radical posers and consumers of the manufactured dissent (oh, I'm a member of this, this and this, I've more Rage Against the Machine T-shirts than you, look I can dress scruffy and look poor I must be a real prole),

try doing something boring and fucking worthwhile like setting up a tenants group or something, although I know all that constructive stuff isnt half as cool and trendy as bitching, moaning and going to parades,

Cheers,

Lark

related link: www.mcspotlight.org
Conor is right about last year's Dublin Council of Trade Unions May Day March in particular. Last year's May Day March was a total and utter fiasco and a complete shambles! What do you expect I suppose when you have a bunch of boring old farts, the most notorious of them being that obnoxious Sam Nolan 'organising' and I mean 'organising' in inverted commas because it was such a disaster, the 'official' DCTU May Day Rally/March.
That's why we will need numbers and organisation for the 3 upcoming Events in Dublin - The National Anti war Demo in Dublin on 27TH April, the offical Dublin Council of Trade Unions Mayday March on 1ST May and the Reclaim The Streets Event on the Mayday Bank Holiday Monday May 6TH. We do urgently need to have at the very least a loose organising committee Co-ordinating these 3 major events in Dublin and Organising Solidarity Actions in the Rest of the Country.

by Paul Kinsella - Globalise Resistance Thu Mar 28, 2002 01:07 paulkinsella53 at yahoo dot com 53 Lorcan Grove, Santry, Dublin 9, Eire 087-9748511

Sorry for the last incomplete post but I somehow pressed the Publish button by mistake.

Re the article "monopolise resistance"
by Lark or should that be Gerald Donaghy. Can I make a few comments?

Firstly the term of abuse "monopolise resistance" is a very trite, stale and hackneyed slur that was got straight from the Irishanarchism Yahoo! discussion list. See I know a lot more people than you might think!

What's wrong with some kind of Unified Campaign even if it is a very loose, autonomous one? As I pointed out to Conor McLoughlin, someone who I know from his ATGWU days, earlier on today in a posting about the Socialist Youth Anti racism Rally last Saturday we do need to have at the very least a Loose Organising Committee Co-ordinating the 3 upcoming major events in Dublin - The National Anti war Demo in Dublin on 27TH April, the offical Dublin Council of Trade Unions Mayday March on 1ST May and the Reclaim The Streets Event on the Mayday Bank Holiday Monday May 6TH and Organising Solidarity Actions in the Rest of the Country. This can be, and don't be surprised, in my opinion Should be a very loose, autonomous Organising Committee Co-ordinating Campaigns, Events and Protests.

You do make a very valid point about some people being such great radical posers and consumers of the manufactured dissent (i.e. phony revolutionaries). However I am NOT one of those fraudsters! You also raise the very valid issue of as you say "try doing something boring and fucking worthwhile like setting up a tenants group or something," Well I am Actively Involved in a number of Different Campaigning Organisations and I was actually involved in starting some of these Organisations up. Apart from Globalise Resistance I'm Actively involved in the Trade Union Rank and File Solidarity Network, the Irish Anti War Movement, the Dublin Anti Bin Charges Campaign and the Amalgamated Transport and General Workers Union. I was at the Inaugural Meetings that set up the Trade Union Rank and File Solidarity Network, the Irish Anti War Movement, Globalise Resistance and the Dublin Anti Bin Charges Campaign.

Finally I had a good look at your related link: www.mcspotlight.org and this is a very good link and I would strongly encourage everyone to have a good look at it.

by Paul Kinsella - Globalise Resistance Thu Mar 28, 2002 02:52 paulkinsella53 at yahoo dot com 53 Lorcan Grove, Santry, Dublin 9, Eire 087-9748511

This is something that is Genuinely New, Radical and Revolutionary and is something that ALL us Anti capitalists should try out as an Alternative to the same old, stale, boring old Marches and Rallies. But we do need a Loose, Autonomous and Broad-Based Organisation to Co-ordinate Activities around this excellent and novel suggestion.

This story can be accessed by logging onto http://www.indymedia.ie/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi?id=1242&start=10

Protest G8 Hold a Knit-In
by agness Mon, Mar 25 2002, 1:57am
protest G8

Revolutionary Knitting Circle
Call to Action:
Global Knit-In

The G8 claims to be a gathering of democratic leaders. The Revolutionary Knitting Circle proclaims that they are anything but. The G8 is a meeting of the wealthiest of the world to decide the fates of the vast majority of the world who are in no way represented by these 'leaders'.

We call upon activists throughout the world to join together in a Global Knit-In to challenge the G8 and the global corporatism it stands for.

Our primary day of action will be Wednesday, June 26, 2002.

On that day, we ask you to organize a group of knitters and learners to knit (or some other subsistence-related productive activity) at one of the seats of corporate power in your communities. Transform those spaces through knitting. Create 'soft' barriers of knitted yarn to reclaim spaces from the elite to the common good. As the community is knitted together, corporate commerce is slowed or halted and the community can prosper.

We will also be doing a mass knitting action at a location outside the G8 meeting (specific location to be determined based on the development of security and access at the meetings, but we will not be going into any environmentally sensitive areas). We will show the G8 what we want through our people- and community-driven production. We will knit and quilt clothing, blankets and other delightful creations. We will share the skills of production with each other. We will engage people of diverse ages, genders, classes and other identities in this peaceful reclaiming of our own subsistence.

On the subsequent days of the G8 meeting (June 27-28) we will join with other activist protests, marches, conferences, etc. - but always with our knitting in hand!

As with all mass events, we look to this as an opportunity to connect people and educate - but the real work of challenging corporatism must go on every day of the year. We encourage you to take the lessons that will be learned through these actions and expand on them in the months and years that follow.

There's a story told about a peace group who spent a day knitting at the corners of a big city intersection. At the height of rush-hour, the knitters worked their magic - casting a giant knitted net over the intersection, halting the automotive traffic - to protect that space for the community.

More Info
RKC G8 website
E-mail: [email protected]

For some prelimanary information the G8 summit is being held in Kananaskis, Alberta in Canada in June, 2002

by Finghin Kelly - Socialist Youth Thu Mar 28, 2002 17:21 info at syucd dot cjb dot net

Socialist Youth and the Socialist Party are for working class unity and co-operation on the left. SP/SY are involved with others on the left in a miriad of different campaigns, bin tax, anti war, anti racism, braod lefts in unions, student unions, the recent abortion campaign etc and various other campaigns.

The question of the Socialist Alliance is a different one to co-operation. It is not the case that we just didn't get on. The SP decided not to join the SA for very good reasons not simply personality clashes. There are some fundamental differences between our parties that I am sure you aknowledge. There is a very good pamphlet written by the SP in response to the SWP's invitation to form a pact at the 1999 local elections, I encourage anyone to read it, it outlines our reasons for not going into this pact and discusses the differences between the SP and SWP. It is available at www.syucd.cjb.net it is called 'Struggle for Socialism Today - a reply to the politics of the SWP'.

Please don't interpet this as being sectarian, it is genuinly not meant in that way.

by Finghin Kelly - Socialist Youth Thu Mar 28, 2002 17:36

The fact is that revolutions have been scuppered due to Revolutions not having a competent revolutionary leadership. Just look at China in the 20s, Chile in the 70s, Spain in the 30's.... even look at Argentina now.

The Socialist Party are not niaive about the Russian revoultion. But you have to recognise that a workers revolution and a workers state was created in Russia after 1917 revolution. The workers state brought many benefits to the working people of Russia, mass education, improved working conditions etc as well as a far more efficient economy. This was all in the context of Russia being in the middle of a world war and then a civil war when Russia was invaded by many foreign armies that wished to restore the Tsar. Things were not perfect and rosy but to simply ignore and write off these gains because of the subsequent Stalinist degeneration of Russia is ridiculous.

by Michael Ronan O'Connell - SWP Thu Mar 28, 2002 21:06 michaeloconnell2001 at yahoo dot com

Hi Finghin,

Fuk it that pamplet is long! I've just added ye into my list of favourites.

Tis great to see, I know ye have "SP/SY are involved with others on the left in a miriad of different campaigns, bin tax, anti war, anti racism, braod lefts in unions, student unions, the recent abortion campaign etc and various other campaigns"

If we work on nearly all the same issues together and oppose virtually exactly the same things then why cannot we not work together on a more formal level?? We can still remain COMPLETELY distinct from one another and each try to achieve their own ends, but I really think it is in BOTH our interests for us to work as close as we can with one another. We both are small enuf as it is, so we can only stand to benefit from this. If I was a capalilist (follower & believer) I would be delighted to see the seperatedness of our two parties.

The SWP are standing a candidate in Cork South Central for the first time ever down in Cork. The SP are standing on Cork North Central. We are calling for a first preference vote for ye're candidate in the North, and are approaching your candidate in the North to do the same for us, but we doubt he will, though we will continue to call for support for your candidate anyhow. Surely it is both our interests to do things like this, especially considering our relative size!!!

Yours in solidarity & friendship,

Michael Ronan.

ps. Fuk there are 65 pages!! (thats including our one to you as well)

by Andrew Tue Apr 02, 2002 12:18

Finghin if you think the degeneration of the revolution started with Stalin you BADLY need to educate yourself. As early as 1918 the banning of left papers, left parties and non bolshevik soviets started, even before the Civil War got underway (May 1918 with the revolt of the Czech legion). By 1921 thousands of leftists had been executed by the Bolsheviks and 10's or 100's of thousands of socialists were in jail. Workers democracy had been smashed both in the workplace and the societs and even factions in the Bolshevik party had been banned.

If you refuse to acknowledge the historical facts and base you defence of Bolshevism on these (some trots do try to do this BTW) then you are being dishonest with yourself. Remember that the victims of Trotsky and Lenin included many long serving party members, see for instance

http://www.struggle.ws/russia/cp/maximof_terror1940.html and
http://www.struggle.ws/russia/bol_opp_lenin_avrich.html

by Finghin - Socialist Youth Tue Apr 02, 2002 13:20

Michael, a copy of that pamhplet is available in printed form. I know a few copies are available for EUR 2.50 in the SP Offices in Dublin. Contact your local SP branch or write to Socialist Party, PO Box 3434 Dublin 8. I'm sure they could get you a copy.

As you will read in the pamphlet, we take many things into consideration when calling for a vote for any particular candidate. A primary one is their base amongst the working class. If your candidate has such a base I am sure that we would have no problem in calling for a vote for your candidate.

In Tipperary South we called for a vote for Seamus Healy. As you may know Seamus is a well known campaigner and has a real following among the workers of Tipperary. We have major theoretical differences with him but did back him primarily because of his base of support.

Andrew, I do know about the Russian Revolution. I know that there were many killed and some parties were banned. But this was to guard against counter revolution. I have no problem with that, I am not a pacifist. You will find that most of those people were in fact plotting an armed overthrow of the workers state.
Regardless of any crimes or autrocities, do you aknowledge the fact that the revolution brought about gains? Surely to dissmiss these gains is to put your head in the sand.

by Michael Ronan O'Connell - Globalise Resistance Tue Apr 02, 2002 14:54 michaeloconnell2001 at yahoo dot com

Hi Finighin,

Thanks for the info. on your pamplet, but its grand, it printed straight from your site. Thats how I know its 65 pages long! :)

Yes, our candidate has such a working class base! so that is great to hear that you reckon ye're candidate will back us, just as we are backing ye. I'll let you know how it goes. Would I be able to get your email address Finighin, you can mail me at [email protected].

Gotta beat these bloody, corrupt, Fianna Failers! One of our lads lost the rag a bit down in Waterford recently, did you hear about that? Wooops! :) I disagree with his aggression and the possible hijacking of another protest going on there, but when you think of the suffering and deaths that have occurred at the hands of Fianna Fail, while they line their pockets, its hard to just contain yourself to throwing daffodils at his lovely car.

Scary & HORRIFIC whats going on in Palestine at the moment isn't it. The American system is Fianna Fail, only on the international scale, only worse. We've gotta stop em' lads. I'm tempted to give up the booze/socializing altogether and go after em' proper.

Andrew, is that you as in Andrew Flood??

Michael.
087-9212272
[email protected]

by Andrew Wed Apr 03, 2002 16:54

Finigen, I suspect you didn't look at the URLS I posted. If you had you would find that those the Bolsheviks executed or jailed from the left in 1918 - 21 period were not counter revolutionaries. Rather they demanded a return to the 'All power to the soviets' slogan that the revolution had been fought on. In short the counter revolutionaries were those who led the Bolshevik party and the soviet state.

The 'old bolshevik' Miasnikov put this rather well in a letter to Lenin "The trouble is that, while you raise your hand against the capitalist, you deal a blow to the worker. You know very well that for such words as I am now uttering hundreds, perhaps thousands, of workers are languishing in prison. That I myself remain at liberty is only because I am a veteran Communist, have suffered for my beliefs, and am known among the mass of workers. Were it not for this, were I just an ordinary mechanic from the same factory, where would I be now? In a Cheka prison or, more likely, made to 'escape,' just as I made Mikhail Romanov 'escape.' Once more I say: You raise your hand against the bourgeoisie, but it is I who am spitting blood, and it is we, the workers, whose jaws are being cracked." (34
"The trouble is that, while you raise your hand against the capitalist, you deal a blow to the worker. You know very well that for such words as I am now uttering hundreds, perhaps thousands, of workers are languishing in prison. That I myself remain at liberty is only because I am a veteran Communist, have suffered for my beliefs, and am known among the mass of workers. Were it not for this, were I just an ordinary mechanic from the same factory, where would I be now? In a Cheka prison or, more likely, made to 'escape,' just as I made Mikhail Romanov 'escape.' Once more I say: You raise your hand against the bourgeoisie, but it is I who am spitting blood, and it is we, the workers, whose jaws are being cracked." (34
"The trouble is that, while you raise your hand against the capitalist, you deal a blow to the worker. You know very well that for such words as I am now uttering hundreds, perhaps thousands, of workers are languishing in prison. That I myself remain at liberty is only because I am a veteran Communist, have suffered for my beliefs, and am known among the mass of workers. Were it not for this, were I just an ordinary mechanic from the same factory, where would I be now? In a Cheka prison or, more likely, made to 'escape,' just as I made Mikhail Romanov 'escape.' Once more I say: You raise your hand against the bourgeoisie, but it is I who am spitting blood, and it is we, the workers, whose jaws are being cracked." (34
"The trouble is that, while you raise your hand against the capitalist, you deal a blow to the worker. You know very well that for such words as I am now uttering hundreds, perhaps thousands, of workers are languishing in prison. That I myself remain at liberty is only because I am a veteran Communist, have suffered for my beliefs, and am known among the mass of workers. Were it not for this, were I just an ordinary mechanic from the same factory, where would I be now? In a Cheka prison or, more likely, made to 'escape,' just as I made Mikhail Romanov 'escape.' Once more I say: You raise your hand against the bourgeoisie, but it is I who am spitting blood, and it is we, the workers, whose jaws are being cracked."

You can choose to hide from this reality if you wish, but in doing so your are building on sand. Again why not read some of the material on the URL I link from here. It includes a lot of documentation written by those the Bolsheviks exectured or jailed as counter revolutionaries. read it for yourself and see if you agree with that judgement.

To Micheal, yes this is Andrew Flood

by Finghin Kelly - Socialist Youth Thu Apr 04, 2002 12:37

Michael, my email adress is [email protected]

I did hear about the protest in Waterford, my first instinct is that the SWP went over the top. From what I heard it was agreed before hand that it would be a silent protest. I wasn't there so I don't know the details or the mood of the protest. It should be welcomed that ordinary people are willing to come out and protest against cut backs in health, we've seen this emerge in Waterford and elsewhere in the country, I think it can only be seen as a good development. We have to be careful not to isolate Socialism from these people by jumping ahead of the mood of the people and attacking cars etc.

I agree that we do have to get FF out. But what do we replace them with? Fine Gael, Labour, Sinn Fein and the Greens are all pro capitalist bourgeois parties and offer no real alternative. THe task for Socialsits over the next period is to build a real alternative, a new mass workers party that can challange capitalism in Ireland.

Andrew, I do not deny that crimes took place. But you seem to be dodging the question on whether or not you aknowledge that there were gains for workers after the Russian Revolution.

by Andrew Thu Apr 04, 2002 14:03

hey Finghin you are just exposing your own lack of knowledge above. The October revolution was NOT an event organised solely by the Bolsheviks but by a wide coalition of forces including anarchists and left SR's. In itself it made no gains, it just removed the ability of Kerensky's gov to roll back the gains that had already been made (already for instance most land had been seized by the peasants and many factories been at least partly taken over by the workers).

So yes I think the October revolution was a good thing but no I think the subsequent Bolshevik closing of Soviets and left (pro-October) parties and papers was not only a 'bad thing' but the cause of the failure of socialism in the 20th C. And the jailing and execution of left (pro-0ctober) activists was also a 'bad thing'. I find your description of the execution of thousands and the jailing or exile of tens of thousands as 'a mistake' rather disgusting BTW.

If you want to have your pretend fairy tail version of history with the Bolsheviks and the working class on the one side and the Czar and all the left on the other that is you choice. But if you think you are going to acheive a new socity on that basis you suffer from the same dillusions as the Maoists and the Stalinists. Cop yourself on