swp ,reactionaries

by OK - SYUCD Fri Aug 23, 2002 15:43

In a previous posting you stated that you've never heard SP members deviate from what 'Joe and Clare' are saying.

The fact is that Joe Higgins and Clare Daly do not decide party policy, it is the membership through discussion in the branchs etc that decide policy. Joe and Clare are probably the only people you hear from in the media and therefore think they are the ones that decide everything.

anyway the SP public representatives have to say what the Party position is when in the media. So what they are saying is very likely to be the majority opinion within the Party.

You are very welcome to discuss things with the SP, you will quickly be able to see that we are very different.

by red sp Wed Aug 21, 2002 22:50

"We are all guilty of been sectarian, the problem with all the socialist party’s is that there understanding of sectarianism is flawed and discredited by their own sectarianism towards other socialist party’s, this clearly shows that the socialist party’s in Belfast if not all of GB/Ire, are hypercritics, the problem as I see it is that there is to many socialist party’s pushing their papers and not enough socialist, they should put there own house in order before shoving there brand of sectarianism on to the working class, the working class I’ve talk to want very little, a democracy build by the people for the people, decent homes and jobs which pay a living wage so they don’t have to depend of welfare, proper free education up too and including third level for their children and a health service which provides the best service there is for all it’s citizens not just the wealthy. "

Republicans (i don't know if you are one or not) keep telling us our view of sectarianism is flawed. But one has yet to explain why or even what our view of sectarianism is. We generally come under attack when we oppose attacks on prodestants as well as catholics and publisise them to remind people that sectarianism is a problem effecting both communities.
The small group Socialist Democracy are always on about this. And in all honesty this is the only critisism we have heard from our line on sectarianism. That its not green enough and we shouldn't equate catholic sectarianism with prodestant etc.

If you read our stuff we do not ignore the role britain played and the fact that the reason for this sectarianism is gov. policy. But we don't want to replace orange oppression with green. And the IRA weren't excatly angels now were they.

And what sectarianism towards other parties? Yes we critisise Sinn Fein all the time, but you yourself call for free education etc, so if sinn fein are privatising education and closing hospitals shouldn't it be opposed?

And at the end of the day although we will gladly talk to SF and the PUP, which we did long before it was fashionable unless they break with their perspective nationalisms the problem will not stop. At the end of the day SF and the PUP are parties representing only one side of the community. We are strictly not going to go down that road. The problems with NI are more to do with communal and sectarian strife than imperialism today.

As for working with the swp, we've tried as everyone else has and honestly there is no point. I suggest you try it yourself someday and find out.

We don't push a newspaper that much, people take them at stalls and marches etc, but we don't shove them down peoples throats. And we have free papers we deliver in Dublin.

We are working class the bulk of our votes and support comes from North and West Dublin. The bulk of our membership is working class and we did get 15,000 1st preference votes, remebering we've only existed as a party since 97 too. So we aren't someone on the outside, we are well known and respected throughout dublin west and north.

Contrary to what most people think we were in fact founded in NI and have been active there since the 70s. We are not blow ins from dublin.

In reality the SP and SWP are the only two parties of any size (and we are also tiny).
The Wp at least in dublin are in serious decline but we would have no problem in working with them.
We have also worked alot with the independent socialist networ (ex stickies) who canvassed for us in the last election.

other groups have about 10 or less members each apart from wsm who have about 30. So if your talking about left unity or socialist unity which could mean months of squabbling with some serious egos and little lenins for the sake of a dozen people to work alongside us, I don't see the point.
Look at the sparticist league for an extreme example!

We campaign under our own banner but this is at least honest instead of setting up front after front and basically lieing to people.

If the SWP were genuine about an alliance that would be fine. But they've had at least a dozen in the last few years and ask anyone that was in any. I had the same view as you when I got involved in a housing campaign with them. Practice showed me otherwise.

We may be critical we may sometimes stand uncomprmisingly behind socialist beliefs, but if we wanted to be republicans we would have joined SF. And we will build alone rather than tail something simply because its popular. If something is wrong its wrong.

As for working with others I can give you some examples, 1, obviously the water charges campaign which was a genuine broad campaign involving thousands. Joe Higgins would not have been elected if we had not put the work in. That is a fact.

For an example with parties we iniciated an alliance against the kosovo war with included, us Sinn Fein, The Workers Party, Socialist Workers Party and the Green Party. This worked extremely well although the SWP had a seperate solo campaign at the same time. There I think you can see the difference

We work with community activists who are non aligned all over dublin, our continued popularity, (our vote doubling) is testament to this. During the elections activists from all over Dublin West and North came behind us, simply because we have done the work on the ground. We held 130 meetins in Dublin North alone in between the elections.

Either way we are not sectarian, we aren't going to waste our time on leftist squabbles over nothing. We will get on with the work. Anyone who wants to work with us can, and we have done so well many times. At least I haven't heard any complaints, I suspect SF and the Greens will want to campaign under their own banners after their election successes for nice. This does not have to be a problem at all. They're won't really be duplication as we are strong in different areas.

Yours fraternaly red

by Rose Wed Aug 21, 2002 20:04

Leave the Socialist Party alone, they don't hijack RTS parties.

by conor mc gowan - ucdsa Wed Aug 21, 2002 18:12

im no expert on the socialist party (or the swp or wp) nor do i claim to be.
i however , have never heard an sp member deviate 1 cm from the party line.all its members are incredibly diciplined and get behind what joe/clare/etc say.-not that teres anything wrong with that.from the OUTSIDE it SEEMS very like the swp/wp
im sure the sp is a fully democratic party-in line with the 4th intl etc

imagine a well written truthful articulate worker or voice? its power would be awesome-that was my point

by Brian Cahill Wed Aug 21, 2002 17:01

Conor, you would probably get a better response if you avoided throwing abuse and made some coherent criticisms. The Socialist Alternative documents on your split with the SWP, for instance, triggered quite a lot of interesting discussion on this newswire.

On the two points you raise:

1) You don't make any real critique of the Socialist Party's organisational structure or practices, yet you seem to expect a defense. Throwing abuse at the SWP - some of it probably deserved, but not all of it - and then sticking on the end that that the Socialist Party and the Workers Party are mean and nasty too really isn't good enough.

The internal structures and life of the various organisations which you mention are very different. Even in formal terms they diverge. The Socialist Party for instance offers minorities the right to organise themselves within the party (factional rights). The SWP and the Workers Party do not. Without such rights it is extremely difficult for a minority point of view to become a majority point of view.

Another example of a major difference should be quite easy to spot. You can search the country for a very long time before you will find anyone who has been expelled from the Socialist Party.

If you want to discuss the democratic way in which the Socialist Party organises I am more than willing to it with you, but you will have to do better than just smearing us by association.

2) Socialist Worker is indeed sensationalist and it is highly unreliable in the figures it gives for the size of demonstrations. Those are undoubted flaws, but those flaws aren't all there is to the paper. Despite the hysterical tone, Socialist Worker normally contains a some reasonably good reporting from a left wing perspective. I am in England at the moment and I read it along with this site, "The Voice" and the WSM site to keep up on what's going on in Ireland.

by conor - etc... Wed Aug 21, 2002 15:04

i dont claim to be mr articulate (typos and grammer errors are also a plenty),but i STILL havent heard ANYONE come on and give ANY reason why the socialist worker isnt a bullshiting sensationalist tabloid,or explain the democratic nature of the swp/sp/wp organisational structure?? nor did dan finn after the above link was posted on this newswire

ANYONE????

by MG Wed Aug 21, 2002 15:02

Nothing that's been said here changes the fact that the SWP are reactionaries. They have a completely one-sided view of everything and when something happens, they say the first stupid thing that comes into their heads without bothering to analyse the situation and act rationally...

This is how they managed to get CJH off the hook. Instead of coming up with an intelligent response to Haughey's crimes, all they could do was write a stupid "jail corrupt politicians" slogan and try to force it down people's throats by plastering posters all over Dublin...

The next logical step is a lynch mob hanging around Leinster Castle, something that reminds me more of Nazism than the type of equal, fair, rational and peaceful society that true socialists strive for...

by glass houses Wed Aug 21, 2002 14:10

"so,have we had any constructive answers to my comments from a member of the swp/sp/wp??

no id have thought as much

i forgot,childish insults and maoist "unity" are the way forward"

As in the quality constructive argument of your original comment?

by sean smyth - none Wed Aug 21, 2002 12:37 seansmyth1964 at hotmail dot com

For the last thirty plus years the local and international press has been full of articles and letters about sectarianism in Ireland, many of them have been written by members of the various socialist party’s, (for those socialist who are paranoid about anything which is written in the capitalist press I mean all socialist party’s) who have been very keen to tell us the only way to tackle sectarianism is their way and that the trade unions are letting down the working class.

For many years the trade union movement has had to deal with its own problems with sectarianism, but it has always been working quietly behind the screams of the victims of sectarianism to try and stop not only its members but any citizen of any community being murdered by sectarian, paramilitary, or state violence.

The last few months people like Peter Bunting deputy, gen, sec, ICTU have being meeting both loyalist and republican politicians and paramilitary leaders and British and Irish government officials to try and stop the blood letting on the streets of NI.

Peter received much criticism for calling on the Mayor of Belfast to organise a anti-sectarianism rally at the city hall on Friday August 2nd (I personally questioned peters judgment), but we are starting to see the benefits of the involvement the politicians and councillors who are beginning to realise the they people they represent have more in common with each other that they have separating them.

The SF, Mayor of Belfast has called for the flags to be removed from interface areas, this should be encouraged and SF could led the way by taken down nationalist flags in all nationalist areas our at least the worn-out ones and the PUP’s Billy Hutchings is calling for a comprehensive, integrated coeducation of all schools in NI.

This is just months after the heartbreaking scenes we witness in Ardoyne Road, when pupils from Holly Cross had face mobs of hate driven demonstrators, going too and from school, the protesters only succeeded in acting like demented demons and denigrate their cause in front of the worlds media, just imagine if the PUP pushed through their education plans the Wheatfield and Holy Cross primary schools could become the spark to a new beginning for North Belfast.

Both the flags and education were subjects which was talk about many months ago by the trade unionist after they were approached from local community activists, this and other signs are encouraging to the trade unionist campaign under the steward ship of Peter Bunting and the ICTU the trade unions, trade groups and community activists is beginning to see the first ray of light at the end of a very long and dark sectarian tunnel.

The definition of sectarianism as printed in Collins English Dictionary is (1. of. belonging or relating to, or characteristic of sects or sectaries. 2. Adhering to a particular sect, faction, or doctrine. 3. Narrow-minded, esp. as a result of rigid adherence to a particular sect. 4. a member of a sect or faction,esp. one who is bigoted in his adherence to its doctrines or in his intolerance towards other sects, ect.

What it does not tell you is that Ireland North and South have been build on inveterate sectarianism, we in the North live in a society which separates is citizens into too camps either you are Protestant or Catholic were the children are prevented from learning and playing together, (example: the churches control of education) were each community has its own culture and identity one British the other Irish, both feeling threaten by the other.

Sectarianism can and will be changed in NI but it will take time, time for the community’s to build trust and understanding of each other, time for party’s like SF, and the PUP to gain enough courage to led people away from the hatred of the past and to look to the future free of fear and intimidation were we can build a society hopefully a socialist one base on respect for each tradition, no mater how painful that maybe, the trade union movement and activist have an important role to play in the building of a new society, a society built on compromise, our problems are not insurmountable but it take great courage to bring about the revolutionary change which is needed to tackle the phobias and prejudice which affect all the citizens of Ireland North and South to bring us to the mindset were we can coexist.

The Paisley’s and the fascist will call us traitors and we will be accuse us of treachery and heresy and if they could they would burn us at the stake, but we must stand firm for the reward is great

We are all guilty of been sectarian, the problem with all the socialist party’s is that there understanding of sectarianism is flawed and discredited by their own sectarianism towards other socialist party’s, this clearly shows that the socialist party’s in Belfast if not all of GB/Ire, are hypercritics, the problem as I see it is that there is to many socialist party’s pushing their papers and not enough socialist, they should put there own house in order before shoving there brand of sectarianism on to the working class, the working class I’ve talk to want very little, a democracy build by the people for the people, decent homes and jobs which pay a living wage so they don’t have to depend of welfare, proper free education up too and including third level for their children and a health service which provides the best service there is for all it’s citizens not just the wealthy.

The revolutionary socialist, communist, and Christians who are waiting for the second coming of Marx, Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin or Jesus are living on cloud nine and hoping for a pipedream which will never happen.

Only a society build on Peace, justice, and democracy will bring an end of sectarianism, this will only happen when people look to the future and leave the past behind were it belongs in museums and in history books to serve as a warning to future generations not to make the same mistakes as we have.

Its time for all people to support the flaw peace process its all we have if we don’t take this opportunity to build a new society our children will never forgive us, enough pain and sorrow has been caused its time to look forward.

Sean Smyth Independent Socialist

by conor - ucd sa (personal capicity) Wed Aug 21, 2002 12:27

so,have we had any constructive answers to my comments from a member of the swp/sp/wp??

no id have thought as much

i forgot,childish insults and maoist "unity" are the way forward

silly me

by Liam Mackey Wed Aug 21, 2002 11:55

Attacking the SWP. Attacking the Socialist Party. Attacking the Workers' Party. How the right wing must be laughing as we try to destroy each other.

Let's not allow Indymedia to descend into a recriminations centre for disgruntled lefties. Let's stand together and fight for those things we have in common.

by conor mc gowan - ucd socialist alternative (in a personal capacity) Wed Aug 21, 2002 10:02 c_mc_gowan at hotmail dot com

as a former (4 week long ) member of the swp , and being a member of the sa (with many former swss members) i feel i can make a few comments on the swp , and why it appears that they are hated.

the paper.-aside from its "recruitment"function lacks any journalistic skill.brash headlines ("their system is failing") and blatant lies ("4000 at march against war)members are forced to sell this heap of shit

recruitment - what often seems to be the sole driving force behind the swp.all parties need members ,fine,but the importance of new members to the swp seems to be the reason behind gr/anl/anv...etc.i have this from the mouth of a former swss student organiser.doubtless manys a swp will deny this(we set up gr,without it thered be no anti globalisation/capitalist movement in ireland,and other such nonsensical arguments).

this particulary eggs off other members of "the movement"-generally opposed to "unity"(even behind an organisationally facist group)-due to their anarcho leanings.

if the swp wants to see socialism suceed in ireland,and not just waste away the idealistic politics of manys a young'un (and old'un),then it time they realised that an undemocratic orgisation ,whoose sole aim is mindless cultish recruitment,which forces members to sell a paper not worth wiping your ass with,and whose faux "debates" poision the left in ireland.

the sp and sinnfein arent much better

by IST Supporter Wed Aug 21, 2002 09:22

Following Simons post, here is the link to the open letter published in the latest Socialist Worker

http://www.swp.ie/resources/Open%20letter%20to%20the%20left.htm

and a further article from the Resistance magazine:

http://www.swp.ie/resources/Where%20now%20for%20Irish%20left.htm

by Simon Basketter - SWP Wed Aug 21, 2002 09:02

It has been a while since the newswire was clogged with the "news" that the SWP are the devil incarnate.

But just a simple point on the Nice Treaty.

The SWP has appealed for socialists to get together to have a joint campaign against the treaty.

This was recognising that there are some specifically socialist arguments about Nice and that it would benefit all socialists if through a united campaign these arguments got more of a hearing.

The argument is gone through in detail in the current issue of Socialist Worker available at http://www.swp.ie

As well as in letters to organisations, informal conversations and in our paper, I have made that appeal openly on threads on this newswire which heralded little more than abuse.

Out in the real world:
The Workers party have declined. The Irish Socialist Network discussed it and decided to set up their own campaign. The Socialist Party have yet to bother to answer the letter. Though all the indications are that they are against the idea.

So there are going to be 4 socialist campaigns on Nice. Great!

In this context the SWP will work with other people against the Nice treaty (including canvassing door to door as it happens).
We'll argue for opposition based on opposing neo-liberalism, militarism and racism.

But to argue that the SWP are fucking up the campaign, when we have argued for the left to get its act together is just plain silly.

To argue we should be banned from campaigning (whatever that means) is symptomatic of the prevailing attitude on the Irish Left that keeps in the sorry state it is in.

by red sp - socialist party Wed Aug 21, 2002 01:30

whose interests does the swp really serve

"One has to wonder about whose interests the swp really serve, in addition to helping c.j. escape justice thanks to a little help from their friends in the pd's"

Yes the only reason cj wasn't done and the bourgeois got away with everything was because the swpers made a jail corrupt politicians poster.

, "they have sabotaged the socialist alliance campaign against the previous Nice treaty. This means that a left of centre campaign has to be started off and build all over again from scratch, this can only be described as sabotage."

Socialist Alliance Campaign!!!! What are you talking about, the SA in Ireland was never more than another SWP front. There was no socialist alliance campaign on Nice to wreck. It was just the swimmers and one or two others that thought it was a serious project. Obviously it wasn't.
There was no unified 'left of centre' campaign the last time.

"It means much valuable time that could and should have been used to campaign effectively against the big business nice treaty has been lost, and essentially work is being unnecessarily duplicated."

What valuble time has been lost? How has this time been lost. If the SA front still existed instead of the Socialist Forum front now what difference would it make. Do you think the SWP and SP and the other small groupings have been in 24 hour talks to agree on a campaign since and this is why hundreds aren't canvasing on the streets as we speak. Do you think the shinners or greens would have anything to do with the swpers?

"I am sure the current leader of FF will be as grateful to them as former leader c.j should be. "

I'm sure they are sound asleep in there beds if they have even heard of the SWP.

"In the meantime the main opposition to Nice is coming from the likes of Justin Barrett rather than from the left. The rest of the left should come together to have a non racist left campaign against Nice and under no conditions should the swp reactionaries be allowed to wreck this one, in fact they should not even be allowed to get involved as we have been there before and know the result."

As far as I am aware the shinners are running there own campaign starting in september also the greens. As they have just won a whole pile of seats they want to stand under their own banners.
As for the SP while we may go in an alliance with the swimmers with others its unlikely we would do it with just the two of us. It wouldn't make much difference to a campaign we would have to water down our positions and it basically wouldn't be worth it.
I don't know what duplication will be going on, Nice is predominately a media based campaign with stalls. Its not a door to door canvasing type one.
As for a blanket ban on the swimmers its simply not necessary, they make eniemies by the bucketful themselves. As you yourself have proved. But you should relax a little they aren't the CIA.