by Bravo three zero Fri Nov 25, 2011 02:16

I wonder why the Gardai acted like that? It's not like the Minister for Justice has a soft spot for Israel or anything.

by Declan Cullen Fri Nov 25, 2011 14:15

It comes to show to real power that Israel has when they can get the Irish Government to order the Gardai to clear the protest. A wise man once said. Quote: ' If you want to know who has the real power in the world, you just have to look for the people everybody is afraid of ' Israel really fits the bill in that respect.

by Des - None Fri Nov 25, 2011 19:33

Cde. Gilmore & co. are now in power, their reaction to the kidnapping of Irish citizens in international waters speaks volumes.  And his cabinet colleague, Mr. Shatter's views on Palestine are well known, so no surprise at the reaction of the cops.

by Diarmuid Breatnach - Personal Capacity Fri Nov 25, 2011 19:48

Well done the protesters. I think the state in general is pushing into a number of kinds of solidarity and resistance and increasing their de facto powers (never mind what's legally justifiable) as they prepare for the resistance so many of us hope will break out in this country. Sorry I wasn't there.

by An Drighneán Donn Sat Nov 26, 2011 20:13

It's always a good thing when the lackey free state shows it true face.  Nothing but an armed gang of imperialist puppets.

by An Draigneán Donn Sat Nov 26, 2011 21:14

The gardaí are certainly quite good at protecting the interests of their masters - the landowners and their bankers. 

by Contrarian Sat Nov 26, 2011 21:20

Funny how those who whine when the Gardai restrict their right to freedom of expression through protesting see nothing at all inconsistent with theirr own attempts to shut down a perfectly legitimate exercise in freedom of expression on behalf of the Israeli embassy and state.  Or is it only the Palestinians who can legitimately have propaganda films - Occupation 101, anyone?

Given the strong and trenchant views held on the Israel/Palestine question, surely the only legitimate response is to allow, or even better, encourage, both sides to put their best foot forward in terms of representing their people's interests and concerns. 

 

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:25

Nice and plausible...and as per usual, very reasonable at first glance.


Then you remember that the Israelis have cut the land from under the feet of the Palestinians(facts on the stolen, and still being stolen, Palestinian ground).

Hard to put your best foot forward when you are bound hand and foot and disenfranchised in your own land.

Or does that constitute a 'whine'?Poor little nuclear Israel has never been known to whine, but if it did, sure as carlsberg, Big Bro Sam would be straight in with his big stick wallet and gratis arsenal.

Isreal's 'best foot' is squadrons of F-35s armed with phosphorous and nuclear weapons, backed up by its hasbara-pumping mercenary allies in the western media...Palestine's best effort is few home-made rockets, or peace-activists(whiners?)standing in front of bulldozers.

If you get back, you might let us know what you think of Israel's 'best foot forward' into our passports, or flouting of international law except when it chooses to mask its illegal actions behind its sophistic spin-meisters.

I will presume you know what a sophistic spin-meister is. Shalom.

by Harvela Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:37

Ironies of ironies . Israel is just about the only state in the middle east that is free from apartheid . Copts are being burnt alive in their churches in Egypt , sectarian hate murder and mayhem is rife in Syria , Yemen , Lebanon , Irak etc and these fascist and reactionaries target Israel . The state subscribes to every tenet of the UN founding charter . Freedom from religious and political persecution , freedom from want , the right to education and the right to freely choose ones goals destiny and the pursuit of liberty and happiness . Where is the apartheid ?. Not in the schools, universities, workplace . Not in the parliament .Not on the buses in the parks or shopping malls . These idiots should be targeting Syria , Iran , Egypt Lebanon , China , Russia instead . They need to ask themselves why Israel . The answer is not very difficult.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:08

And just what do you call the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from their own homeland to create a Jewsish state for a Jewish people..while basing their claims to the land on a book of folk tales?

And who exactly is 'fascist and reactionary'?The protesters?Do you understand the terms?

The answer is not very difficult?
Not for me its not. Its because I see the parallels between the imperial impositions on this island over the last millennium and the Zionist imperial project in Palestine.

Plantations/Settlements...to Hell or to Transjordan?Gerrymandered pseudo-democracy resisting the peaceful wishes of the people until it has provoked the reaction it wants to justify its jackboot expansionary insatiable policy of Liebensraum.

Fascism?Apartheid? Guilty on all counts.

The state subscribes to every tenet of the UN charter...that would make a great stand-up routine for the state thats flouts more UN resolutions than the rest of the planet together.

You better consult you hasbara handler again.

by Declan Cullen Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:58

Gilmore's attendance at the film launch proves his preference for Israel over the people of Ireland. My God! why is every nation in the world so afraid of taking on this school yard bully.

by Contrarian - Worldwide Zionist Conspiracy member, apparently! Sun Nov 27, 2011 13:04

I'll happily return the compliment, Opus.  You're no stranger to sophism and spinmeistering yourself.  Actually, now that I think of it, it is a stock in trade of many who advocate for the Palestinian cause.  Let's educate ourselves with an example or two.

Palestinian Sophism No 1: The APARTHEID WALL

Now, class, what do Palestinian advocates call the structure erected by Israel that runs (roughly) between Israel and the West Bank?  Why, the "apartheid wall", of course.  But, of course, its neither a wall nor apartheid related.  For well over 90% of its considerable length, its actually a fence, not a wall.  But "wall" sounds much more ominous and threatening than "fence."  Evokes memories of the Berlin Wall and all that.  Makes for better agitprop "street theatre" outside a CRH AGM, too. 

And, pay attention now class, what words might we use to discredit those we disagree with politically?  Yes, fascist, very good.  And Nazism, even better.  Racist, excellent.  And, best of all, a word no one could support?  Anybody?  At the back, there, young diablos?  Yes, APARTHEID, very good, opus.  A great word that.  Instantly damns those accused of it.  Never mind that they don't actually practise it, lets see the "Zionazi" bastards squirm and deny it.  Never mind that Israeli Arabs have full voting rights, have full rights of access to an independent judiciary, have free independent political parties, have members elected  to the Knesset, have served in cabinet, have served on the Israeli Supreme Court, can join free independent trade unions, can be openly gay or lesbian, can enjoy a free press and freedom of expression to an extent unparalleled elsewhere in the region.  Unlike, say in Gaza, they can go to the beach and actually wear the swimming costumes of their choice.  Or just walk the streets free from the unwritten but sternly enforced dictates of a morality police. Never mind all that auld democracy and equal rights, just throw the big "A" word around.  Combine it with an evil sounding "wall" and we've got the "APARTHEID WALL."   Not the fence which it is for most of its length or the "security barrier" which is its essential purpose. Prior to its construction, Palestinian suicide bombings murdered hundreds of Israeli citizens and maimed thousands more.  Many were children, in pizza parlours, on buses (a perennial Palestinian favourite, that, attacks on buses - nice source of undefended civilian victims, I suppose) in shops, innocent civilians going about their business.  Remember, these were not attacks on military targets that had unintended civilian victims.  Their very purpose was to kill civilians.  Since the SECURITY BARRIER was completed, suicide bombings have dwindled to virtually zero.  Cause and effect.  QED. 

 

Palestinian Sophism No. 2:  International Law

Easy this.  Declare everything Israel does (or does not do) as a breach of international law.  Ignore clear breaches of international law by Hamas/Hisbollah/PLO.  Aforementioned suicide bombings for instance.  Or your "few home-made rockets" as you describe them, opus.  Presumably "a few" can be elastically extended to cover many thousands in recent years.  And, last time I checked, Grad and Katyusha missiles are not generally home-made either.  (BTW as an aside, can any Palestinian supporter explain the logic of firing missiles into communities in Northern Galilee where Israeli Arabs actually form the majority of the population and inevitably form the majority of the victims.  Just wondering?)

 

Palestinian Sophism No 3:  "Stolen Land"

A clever one this.  Ignore that Israel's Jewish community arrived there lawfully in the late 19th and early 20th centuries and bought their land.  From Palestinians.  Or that Jews have lived in Israel for hundreds even thousands of years.  Even today, the vast majority of "settlements" are built on vacant uninhabited Government controlled land.  But instead pretend that the rare cases of illegal, unofficial theft of land by extremist settlers (which can be and regularly are overturned by the Israeli courts) is the norm and is the same as the expansion of Jewish neighbourhoods on Jewish land in Jerusalem. 

Ignore too the land stolen from Jewish communities in the West Bank and East Jerusalem in the 1948-1967 period.  Ignore the slaughter of the entire population of the Gush Etzion Jewish settlement (on puchased not stolen land) during the War of Independence.  Ignore the 57 synagogues razed to the ground in the Jewish Quarter of East Jerusalem during the Jordanian/Palestinian occupation.  Ignore the tombstones desecrated from the ancient Jewish cemetary on the Mount of Olives and used to pave roads and make latrines during the same occupation. (A trick copied directly from Nazi Germany.)   Ignore the laws that made the sale of land to Jews a crime punishable by death.  (Would that be apartheid, I wonder?)  Ignore the property and land stolen from the Jews who were expelled from or fled Arab countries and Iran in the period after Israeli independence.  (The area of land alone stolen from Jews has been estimated as more than four times the entire land area of Israel.) 

Ignore all that.  Refer constantly to "stolen Palestinian land."  Be a bit vague about which land you claim to be stolen and you can even delegitimise the entire Israeli state and claim it has no right to exist.  Conflate terms such as Zionism, colonialism, imperialism and throw in a bit of 19th century Euorpean superiority complex and, hey presto,  the flood of Jewish refugees fleeing Tsarist and European persecution and pogroms magically turn into opus diablos's *Zionist imperial project in Palestine." 

 

Palestinian Sophism No 4:  Biblical basis only for Israel.

Another clever one, this.  And a favourite of opus diablos which he has trotted out repeatedly on this site.  Just pretend that Israel's claim to existence is merely based on biblical premises, or, as opus puts it, they base "their claims to the land on a book of folk tales."  Ignore the UN resolution that partitioned Palestine and mandated the establishment of a Jewish state.   Ignore the previous League of Nations mandate to establish a Jewish state. 

 

I could go on.  But what's the point.  If minds are closed to the extent that a few films, documentaries and a TV sitcom episode must be opposed at all costs, what chance of an open and HONEST debate that accepts there are faults on BOTH sides, grievances and injustices on BOTH sides and legitimate claims on BOTH sides.  But I suppose its easier to pretend all the fault is one the Israeli side and that any hint to the contrary must be dismissed as sophism, spin meistery and, that beautifully convenient dismissive word HASBARA.  Repeat the cliche, makes argument redundant.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Sun Nov 27, 2011 13:21

..as China.

Iran is not a challenger to the neo-con Project for a New American Century..but it can supply oil(as Africa can supply multiple resources)to China, which is a contender.

The hit on Libya is a reclaim on Africa, first re-establishing the Med as NATO's puddle, then closing down Gadaffi's projected African currency, and attempts to strengthen African union to resist the imperial predations that prevent it being the richest continent, and keep it as an underdeveloped reservoir for the wests exractive industries.
China was screwing the story by putting infrastructure in place and elbowing its way into 'our' backyard.

Iran, like Iraq and Venezuela is in the sights because of the oil-curse. If only they'd behave like the agreeable Saudis and buy our weapons systems with their oil-wealth all would be rosy.
But I think they are all incidental to the main play, the sumo match between the EU/US imperial bloc, and its client elites globally, that have had a 5 century head start in the global Great Game, and new kid on the block and rising industrial powerhouse of China.
Not unlike Britannia confronted by lately unified Germany as the ninteenth century closed on the empire the sun never set upon.

And they seem to have learned nothing from the twentieth century collisions.

As the Africans say, when the elephants dance, the ants get crushed.

by Des - None Sun Nov 27, 2011 16:25

The history of the Zionist regime is one of a long series of crimes that the Hitler fascists would be proud of.  Deir Yassin, Qana, Sabra Chatila, Jenin amongst others.  The only difference between Zionism and the Nazis are that the former have achieved nuclear status.  The fact that a ‘socialist’ like Gilmore showed up to this event speaks volumes.
Incidentally, 'their' apartheid wall is surprise, surprise, being constructed on stolen land.  Nothing new there, of course.

by A Freeman Sun Nov 27, 2011 17:50

Comparing Jews to Nazis is despicable, of course it's a constant of leftist-islamist propaganda. In fact it was the muslim mufti of Jerusalem who met several times with with Hitler and senior nazis during WW2 and urged Hitler to speed up the extermination process then underway at Auschwitz-Birkenau, Treblinka etc.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Sun Nov 27, 2011 18:54

To equate them would be to exagerate, that i'll grant.

But to compare them is hardly as despicable as to smear all of Islam with the Nazi collusion of the singular muslim Mufti.


Nazism and Zionism have ultra-nationalism, a corporate state structure, uber-militarisation(c'mon, the Nazis weren't even nuked in), deeply propagandised populations motivated by delusions of master race/chosen people tribal delusions of superiority and terror of a manufactured enemy, plus an undefined capacity and appetite for leibensraum by population movement and dispossession.....not altogether incomparable.


Yep, less despicable than your extension of smear from one individual power-monger to a global creed and culture encapsulating many hundreds of millions.

by Des - None Sun Nov 27, 2011 19:10

I was comparing the crimes of the Zionists with those of the German fascists.  You know, acquiring land by force, expelling the inhabitants, replacing them with settlers.  The crimes I listed all occurred.  I am opposed to all forms of racism, including Zionism.
Incidentally, Mr. Stern had meetings with the fascists as well. 

by Contrarian Sun Nov 27, 2011 21:01

OK, lets analyse the alleged similarities between Nazism and Zionism.

1. Ultra Nationalism

Zionism hardly comes close.  Nationalism in one country (with some disputed territory on the margins) is pretty bog standard nationalism as found in lots of nation states including Ireland, UK, France, Italy, Spain etc etc. The Nazis brought it to a whole new level with their plans for world domination.   Despite the wilder delusions of domination of banking sytems held by some (see Declan Cullen above) Zionism just isn't even in the same league. 

 

2. Corporatism

The labour Zionism of the 1920's, 30's was somewhat akin to corporatism.  However, this was but one strand of Zionist thought and has now largely disappeared from public discourse yet alone practice.  The modern Israeli economy and society is based on economic liberalism and free trade, the polar opposite of corporatism.

3. Uber-militarism.

Israel is about as militarised as it needs to be to defend itself against the many threats to its existence.  No more, no less.  In 2010 it spent 6.4% of its GDP on its military.  This is less in absolute terms than Canada and less in percentage terms than many of its Arab neighbours.  To spend any less would be foolhardy.  Unfortunately. 

4. Deeply propagandised populations. 

Israel has freedom of speech, a free press and is completely open to circulation of outside media.  The contrast with Nazi Germany could hardly be clearer. 

5. Delusions of master race/chosen people.

The chosen people is a religious concept - it is not given actualisation in Israeli civil society.  Anyway, doesn't EVERY religion believe it is the only correct one.  Including Catholicism and Islam.  Actually, especially Catholicism and Islam.  Judaism embraces all so-called "races" - European, Semitic, Persian, Black African, Asian.  Again the contrast with Nazism is striking.

6. Lebensraum.

Half of one percent of the middle east vs Most of Europe from the Atlantic to the Urals.  Yeah, right.

Other obvious differences are Israel's free elections, independent judiciary, you know, democracy and all that.  Not really like Nazi Germany at all.

by Frank Adam - private citizen Sun Nov 27, 2011 21:58

When are Martin O'Quigley, Raymond Deane and my namesake Proinsias de Rossa compensating the American Indians for being ethnically cleansed - at least partly -  by the now 35 million Americans of Irish origin?   

Further can they explain their  disproportionate outrage about Israel compared to the most Catholic Majesty of Spain's doings in the Americas? or the not so cold pogrom getting rid of Arab Christians from Iraq, Lebanon and Egypt's Copts?

How do the whited sepulchres in the column excuse the clerical fascist clauses of the PLO, Hizbollah and Hamas charters which call for killing all Jews and not just "Zionists"?    Incidentally the majority of Israeli Jews are descended from families that came from Arab countries in and after 1948 - and they are not wanted back?

When are they going to notice that since 1948 assorted Arab states have killed a hundred times more Arabs and Iranians than Israel has killed attacking Arabs?  

Why no demos about the Arab Christians being set upon in Egypt? Iraq? and that Syria in less than a year has killed more Syrian Arabs - its own citizens - than Israel did in the Second Intifada which the Palestine Arabs initiated killing civilians mostly?   If you can not bother about your co-religionists first then why trust you about anyone else?

 

 

by lefty Mon Nov 28, 2011 08:14

Contrarian and frank are old hand hasbara misinformation water muddiers here on indy. They have a cheek talking about sophistry and propaganda when this is the kind of organised monkey business the Israeli propaganda machine gets up to:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/09/isr...media

Israeli propagandists are very organised and disciplined on the web. Notice our own  fintan lane in the second link:
http://www.giyus.org/2011/06/these-are-the-faces-of-the....html

These guys aren't interested in rational discourse. They have an unshakeable agenda which they pursue single mindedly using the techniques of hasbara. Have a read of one version of the hasbara handbook created for students on campus.
http://www.middle-east-info.org/take/wujshasbara.pdf

Now you should have a better idea where these guys are coming from and you can spot some of their little propaganda tricks more easily.

Obviously contrarian and frank belong to the indymedia cyberregiment!  Just my own opinion here but candidly I suggest you don't waste your time responding to these apologists folks. It's never actually a real proper "frank" discussion and you're only feeding the trolls.

Shalom

by Good point Mon Nov 28, 2011 08:48

Is that the same Doc Lane that digs out on the auld med cruises for a few nights free B&B in Ashdod.  Just going to book my holidays for next year, anyone know his number I'd love a week in Israel for free?

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:37

Problem with that is I have no motive for such bullshit, whereas the operations and techniques of hasbara, Mossad, denial, obfuscation, smear, distortion and disinformation coupled with terrorism and false-flag black ops and backroom deals go back to and beyond Balfour to the racial Zionism of the nineteenth century origins in European academia in parallel with the pseudo-scientific Aryan theories of those cousins who bought into the racist division of humanity into tribal divisions to facilitate conquest, political, economic and military.


The reason I respond to this hasbara is because not every one has the time to uncover and consider the roots of such false thinking. If its left unanswered the gullible can be misled.

I put contrarian, frank and 'good point' disruptions down as much to plain ignorance and self-delusion as malice or premeditated agendas(though I accept there are payrolls for such).

Nor do I think Israel particularly unique in its uber-nationalism, as implied; just particularly blatant, clever, and dangerous given its location. Not unlike the Germans, the Israelis have a talent for efficiency in execution of their blinkered ideals.
Nor is this a racial analysis, I use the term culturally. It is racism I counter.

Nor will accusatory gainsaying change such fundamental facts.

I'll leave it to any honest reader to revisit my comment and make their own call on my 'spin and sophistry'. And to do the same for the forementioned apologists for the hard-to-miss Israeli actions against Palestine and beyond.

I do confess however to being gratified that that my comment draws sufficient ire to merit such tendentious responses.

Excuse the presentation of such awkward facts on the ground.

by Frank Adam - private citizen Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:46

I can only imagine that the opus diabolos office swear box must be giving out more charity  than any other.

His - or is it a her ? - technique is to swear when they can not answer the argument. 

To swear when they can not subvert the opposing evidence with analysis;  and to play the man instead of the ball.

Given Irish nationalism and most inter war Fascisms in Europe were based on one of the narrower variants of a religious identity, I can only surmise that the suffused hatred is something to do with seeing a variant of oneself  in the mirror braided with the jealousy at what for a small and harassed country is a considerable success at economically, socially and culturally repairing and reviving the epitome of "the wretched of the Earth" or in the Statue of Liberty verse:  "tired masses yearning to be free."

If the Americans, Indians, Irish and Iraelis could all succeed in breaking free of their British and Spanish masters and like the Chinese sweep out imperial interferers to create their states and societies, while the spoiled and subsidised Palestinian Arabs can not, then it means the PLO and its H & H friends are bloody incompetent or total frauds catspawing for somebody.

 

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:29

Thanks for that exemplary piece of hasbara. I'm flattered by your ad hominem attentions, despite the distorted misrepresentations of my comment.

I suggest anyone the slightest bit interested in the actual issues(as opposed to the personalised diversion frank endeavours to instigate) read my comment and compare it with his(it's?maybe we are dealing with a virus, the response is certainly programatic).

He is obviously anxious to draw a denial of his blatant lies(lets get some heat going to prevent the light of information penetrating). I cant remember was it Nixon or LBJ when proposing a smear-job on an opponent and upon being told but its not true replied with 'We know that, but lets hear him deny it '.

I'll leave it to the reader, just to annoy him. Its a mud-stick prevention tip I prepared earlier(while frank was studying his hasbara catechism).

Shalom frank.

by Declan Cullan Mon Nov 28, 2011 14:02

To A Freeman, and all the other Israel apologists on this post, answer me this: Is it not against the law in Israel for Jews to marry Non - Jews? The reason I say this is that by definition this is an Apartheid scenario. Look at the Talmud that views Non - Jews as sub human. Did not the home of the phrase Apartheid, i.e South Africa, not once have the same view? I always love the line taken by apologists. They give the impression that if someone even looks crooked at Israel that they deserve to be Cluster Bombed and blanketed with White Phosphorus in order for them to change the opinion, their twisted view of morality is amazing. Israel's cover is blown, no one believes their victim rhetoric anymore, and this to me is progress. No more wars for Israel!

by Bad point Mon Nov 28, 2011 15:10

No Declan, it is not illegal in Israel for Jews to marry non Jews, unlike some of the neighbouring Islamic states.

Some branches of judaism may not approve or conduct the service.

Freedom of religion and the right to be gay are also allowed there.

by Frank Adam - private citizen Mon Nov 28, 2011 15:27

Or as one of The Guardian's string of Arab polo ponies once put it, "Show me whom you hate, and I will show you whom you need."

Try each of your accusations of Israel on your each of your Arab idols and you will soon see who is the pre-Enlightenment clerical fascist starting with those Arab states that impose death penalties for selling land to a Jew - if you get into court in the first place. 

Then there is the Mahmoud Abbas, PA president, who holds that there will be not a single Jew in any Palestine [Arab] state that comes about.   

Saudi does not even allow a Jew to visit - unless it happened to be "Cousin Henry" (Kissinger) trying to defuse the fact that the Arabs were losing the Yom Kippur War - that as usual, they had opened.   When he called in 1973ff the late Kink Feisal opened with, "Shall we settle this like human beings?"

To which HK replied, "Some of my best friends are human beings." qv the Cruiser's excellent book, "The Siege."

For gender equality:  Moslem men  may marry a kaffir woman but it is forbidden on pain of honour killing for a Moslima to marry a kaffir.

For racism, the very Arabic word for an African is, "slave" - ebd.    Mind you, Christian Europe played the same trick with Slav.

Your tragedy is that you have, "despaired of The Republic" in Livy's record of senatorial thanks.   You have lost the argument of how to progress Left  arguments in a capitalist economy that has bought off the edge of the poorer half's outrage with lots of modern toys such as washing machines, cars and other domestic and industrial electrical menials and clowns.  Accordingly you have spent the last forty years thinking you can smash the system by Third World revolt.   Well the empires went two generations ago and you are padding through slough of fallacy.  All the competent Third World - BRIC's and CIVET's - are following the West, and the Arab Spring looks as if it is voting for Whiggish to pre- Thatcher traditional Tory mix of the religion and patriotism (Anglican establishment in politics or the flip:  the Tory party at prayer when the Labour Party was more Methodist than Marxist).  The opening generations of Irish independence were religious rural conservatism too, but whatever their parties, they were not Left, not Progress, and not Marxist and nor are you.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Mon Nov 28, 2011 18:20

Though I doubt that blizzard of noise was directed at me.

But it does seem to confirm that you are a disruptive program on reflex mode for the slightest criticism of the only nuclear state in the region undefined by borders and serving the interests of the colonial cartel that established it to mind 'our oil' at the expense of the Palestinians it continues to dispossess.

Maybe cut down on the poteen, it might up your coherence.

by Contrarian Mon Nov 28, 2011 22:41

"Contrarian and frank are old hand hasbara misinformation water muddiers here on indy."

Can you point out one factually incorrect piece of misinformation i have ever posted on this site?   Just one.  Ever? 

That's "factually incorrect" as in demonstrably false rather than "opinions I happen to disagree with." 

And is throwing the word Hasbara into an argument supposed to be some sort of trump card than automatically invalidates any pro-Israeli argument whatsoever?  Are Israelis the only people on Earth that aren't allowed put their views forward in public debate.  Or, shock, horror, engage in news management.  Like no other nation does that.  Evil Zionazis.  Sure, you couldn't be up to them.  Mighty convenient that.  After all, what was the flotilla but an exercise in propaganda and news management more than an aid mission.  Except when the pro-Palestinians do it its called "bring the world’s attention to what is happening in Gaza" (Quote from irishshiptogaza.org)

Sorry to muddy your clear waters with facts but the Israel/Palestinian question is slightly more complicated than the simplistic Israelis bad, Palestinians good, caricature it gets reduced to on indymedia and even in most of the Irish MSM.  Try nuance. Try faults and genuine grievances on both sides.  Above all, try and figure out what a solution might look like. 

by fred Tue Nov 29, 2011 09:16

"Above all, try and figure out what a solution might look like. "

Ok. Done that:

by fred Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:58

"Above all, try and figure out what a solution might look like. "

and also:

by Frank Adam - private citizen Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:13

As you spend so much time telling Israel what to do, try checking out what the Palestine Arabs and their friends can do to  make the peace you pretend to want for an Arab Palestine State, especially as the nuclear ambitions of Ahmadinajad have definitely shouted an intention to obliterate Israel and your N-photo proves the earlier point that you  - and all - judge others by themselves. 

Here is a step by step to putting Israel at ease that its Arab opposite numbers and yourselves, are genuinely for a two state solution, and if you can only dismiss these with "hasbara" you are not peace makers, not dealing with reality, and only after some displacement activity for your own psyches because Eire is too quiet.  The basic premise since the Churchilll White Paper in 1921 is that the price of an Arab state in Palestine is peace for Israel as much as peace for Israel is an Arab state of Palestine alongside and ending the conflict comes before any amendments to the 49 -67 border given the Oslo experience.

Are the Arab states and PLO, Hamas and Hizbollah willing to end the conflict at all?

Are the Arab states and PLO, Hamas and Hizbollah willing to abrogate the anti-Jewish as well as the anti-Israel clauses of their charters?

Are the Arab states and PLO, Hamas and Hizbollah willing to compensate the Jewish refugees from Arab countries & Iran?

Are the Arab states and PLO, Hamas and Hizbollah willing to call off the harassment of Israel in international forums starting with the UN?

Are the Arab states and PLO, Hamas and Hizbollah willing to admit they junked UN 181 in 1947 and set out their Khartoum noes in 1967?

Are the Arab states and PLO, Hamas and Hizbollah willing to admit to the consequences of their the Khartoum noes & rejecting UN181 ?

Are the Arab states and PLO, Hamas and Hizbollah willing to recognise Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people - even as Ireland is the nation state of the Irish people despite resident minorities?

Are the Arab states and PLO, Hamas and Hizbollah willing to settle with citizenship their refugees of 1948 where they currently reside?

Are the Arab states and PLO, Hamas and Hizbollah willing to clarify whether the "normal relations" offered in the API (Arab/Saudi Peace Initiative) are normal as in Canada-USA, or France-Russia;  or normal as in Syria -Lebanon or Iran-Iraq?

 

 

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:34

Lets just take your first point

Are the Arab states......willing to end the conflict at all?


The conflict arises from the robbery of Palestinian land and property.


Is Israel willing to stop, reverse, and compensate for its ongoing displacement and settlement program?

No, Israel is bent on accelerating and escalating the ethnic cleansing while talking peace from the other side of its mouth.

Answer that one point please, then maybe I might even read the rest of your 'other end'.

If Israel is escalating the conflict, what part has an Palestinian to play in ending it??

RSVP.

by Frank Adam - private citizen Tue Nov 29, 2011 13:08

The question is whether the Arabs of all stripes wish to end the conflict?  

The causes of the conflict are another point to be taken up in due course.

So leave your myths on the sideboard:   unlike the Irish in the USA and Australia etc, the Jews of Palestine bought every piece of land they held prior to 15 May 1948 when the Arab armies invaded with the public aim of ethnically cleansing the Jews of Israel. 

The laws and customs of war are slightly different to those of peace which can not apply till established, whence this first and overarching question, " Are the Arab parties willing to end the conflict?"

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Tue Nov 29, 2011 13:31

..one of your own chosen points. Which is precisely what I, intentionally, am doing.

Your point is to ask about the willingness of one side to seek to end the conflict.

You ignore, and wish to avoid, evade and supress the point that the other(your chosen)side is escalating the conflict while cynically and hypocritically making demands for gestures from the injured and still under assault party.

You stick to your own chosen point.

And while I'm bothering to pretend you even have any intention of conducting an honest discussion, here is a little more of the hidden agenda your aggressors are pushing. Anyone who knows the basic part partition, and promoted sectarianisms, played, from Pakistan to Ulster, will recognise the plot displayed in this breakdown.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=27786

by fred Tue Nov 29, 2011 15:07

frank

all your nit picking hasbara points are irrelevant

Its clear to anyone looking at the systematic actions of Israel over the past number of years that Israel lie about wanting peace and a 2 state solution.

They are just obfuscating and buying time whilst their settlement program and strongarm military tactics and border and sea blockades make any kind of normal life for the palestinians impossible and will eventually displace them so the Israelis can steal their land and water supplies and other natural resources for themselves.

by Frank Adam - private citizen Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:54

Opus diabolos has summed himself up so well ! Just look at  his original response !

And Fred - on partition anniversary day of all days still can not admit his Arab Dulcineas del Tobosa have faults.

There will be no peace till BOTH sides face their past mistakes, then put their future first.

As Golda Meir put it,"Peace will come when the Arabs love their children more than they hate us."

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:21

Just went back to refresh and remind meself.

But you've wandered off your own point, yet again. Or is that your currrent point?More evasion of the issues you yourself raise, in the hope of spreading confusion?

And thats a closer one to check back on.

But to save the bother.
When will Israel indicate its willingness to arrest the illegal settlements, ethnic cleansing and state terror that are the cause of this whole prolonged and escalating conflict?

Then maybe their claims of any slight interest in a peaceful co-existence, rather than a hegemonic domination, might hold a thimble of credibility.

Until then Irish,and increasingly others, will continue to see through perfidious Israeli double-thinking newspeak.

Shalom, and teshuvah.

by Frank Adam - private citizen Wed Nov 30, 2011 21:58

The very idea of Israel being hegemonic in the Middle East is so ridiculous it exposes her accusers of pursuing private demons rather than analysis of a real problem.    

Just one of your fake complaints, a year back Israel had a ten month moratorium on building in Nablus and Hebron Districts and the PA rather than take up the bona fide found excuses not to talk till the moratorium ran out - then kicked up a fuss of wounded respect.  

Any fool can start a war. Both sides have to agree to stop it.

The Arab parties to this dispute do not wish to make peace at all, and write as much in the PLO, Hamas and Hizbollah Charters and  skate over that most Israelis are now in families that fled the Moslem World. 

Accordingly Israel - like those echt kosher leftists, the Vietnamese - has learnt the only way to survive and pressure their opponents is to build while fighting them off, even as the Viets talked and fought - if you are old enough to remember.

I am old enough to remember as a witness the decade and more before 1967 when the Arabs could have made a peace on the 1949 "Green Line" but rather refused to even say "Israel".  Further I remember that in the week after the '67 war Israel offered all concerned to return to the 1949 border for a peace treaty to turn it into a frontier; but he Arab governments did not even reply thanks, but no thanks.

You will have no satisfaction till you stop pandering to Arab exceptionalism and drop the gratuitous insults which only obscure the real issues of:  stopping the conflict;  sorting out compensations to which individuals on both sides are entitled;   and get on with the rest of our lives - if you have one.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Wed Nov 30, 2011 22:47

But stop blowing smoke.

All your ad hominems do not mask the fact on the ground that you are refusing to face the point you yourself raised.

That Israel cannot demand to negotiate on its terms, to whom it selects to represent the Palestinian case, while it continues to instigate conflict by settlements on militarily stolen and occupied lands.

That is equiivalent to your mugger asking you to be reasonable and stop resisting his assaults.

serious chutzpah.

by Frank Adam - private citizen Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:30

Well said. It was the Arab parties who threw the riots alias pogroms in 1920- 21, in 1929 and who started a full fledged rebellion in 1936 - 38 that wasted nearly a year's revenue of reserves that could have gone into schools, health & infrastructure.

Most pertinent it was the Arab parties of all ranks and stripes who opened the conflict by rejecting UN181 in Nov 1947 and then sending in regular armies in May1948.    Just check those newspaper archives and see for yourself who was promising massacre, ethnic cleansing and triumphalist supremacism.    Ditto any number of other Arab speeches documents and behaviour since, and the Iranian ayatollahs have joined in gratuitously out of pure sectarianism but are well on the way to creating a deserved reaction in the West even as the Arabs already have.  The whole of Arab Moslem history is one long imperialist swipe and it will come a cropper like the others.

Everybody gets trade unions and Jews they deserve and I fail to see why Arabs should be an exception.   Come alternatives to Arab oil all this will be cut to size and the pompous self righteousness with it.

by fred Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:51

"Just one of your fake complaints, a year back Israel had a ten month moratorium on building in Nablus and Hebron Districts and the PA rather than take up the bona fide found excuses not to talk till the moratorium ran out - then kicked up a fuss of wounded respect.  "

yeah, Israel stopped stealing palestinian land for a while then when they decide to start up the stealing again ten months later they blame it on the victim.

Thats just ridiculous.

Frank, I'd have that nasty dose of cognitive dissonance seen to if I were you! 

It's quite contagious. You can easily catch it from swallowing mark regevs disgusting emissions

by Frank Adam - private citizen Thu Dec 01, 2011 14:33

Typical blinkered and unread;  opinion as distinct from evidence.

Try close reading the original PLO, HAMAS and Hizbollah Charters and the UN Charter, especially Arts 29 and 30 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (Art 17 European Declaration ditto).

If you must kick cats and swear - politically of course - to satisfy your egos, keep it to the locals instead of complicating life for far away peoples of whom you know exceedingly little.  Start by  respecting self-determination and skirting the Arab arrogance to define others in defiance of their own self determination.

 What happens to Jews and gypsies this decade or generation, on the last two centuries' precedents happens to everybody else a decade or generation later.     Do not complain if you do not enjoy the Moslem take over of Europe.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Thu Dec 01, 2011 15:45

Gotcha.
That is one racist statement.

You still refuse to address the very issue you raised, but you did just blow your legalistic and jesuitical cover.

As for your ignorant smearing of Mulims, I'll leave you with the predations of our local christians.

 Shalom.

by lefty Thu Dec 01, 2011 16:10

frank adams said: "Do not complain if you do not enjoy the Moslem take over of Europe."

Now change two words: "Do not complain if you do not enjoy the Jewish bankers take over of Europe."

or alternatively: "Do not complain if you do not enjoy the zionist take over of Palestine."

then sit back and watch frank and his minions have a shite attack squealing about conspiracy theory racism and anti semitism.

by Frank Adam - private citizen Fri Dec 02, 2011 20:42

The Arabs own documents smear them more effectively than anybody else can

and obviously you have not read them.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Sat Dec 03, 2011 11:35

Sooo.

Every Arab is reponsible for any Arab's document?

Racist smear, alright.

But not from an Arab, franky, from your propagandist bigot's keyboard, franky boy.

Shalom. Teshuvah.

by Frannk Adam - private citizen Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:01

Please take the following quiz on topics regarding Palestinian quality of life, demography and history, and test your knowledge with the answers provided below.

Questions

1.) Rank these countries according to life expectancy (longest first).

Brazil, Turkey, Egypt, Gaza, Russia, & world average

2.) Rank these conflicts (since 1950) in terms of number of casualties.

Burma/Myanmar; Russia-Chechnya; Arab-Israeli conflict; Zimbabwe civil disorders; Iranian Revolution; Repression of Kurds (Turkey,Iraq,Iran); Sri Lanka and Sudan civil wars

3.) How many Palestinians were treated in Israeli hospitals in 2010?

None; 180; 1,800; 18,000; or 180,000

4.) Which of the following organs of Palestinian society are under “occupying” Israeli control?

Education system; The Judiciary; The Press, Taxation; or None of the above

5.) Rank these countries by rate of economic growth (GDP, 2009 figures)

Australia, Germany, Israel, Egypt, Palestinian Territories, Hong Kong, and Brazil

6.) The UN Human Rights Council has passed more resolutions against Israel over the Palestine question than against all other nations combined.

Which of these countries are not currently serving on the UNHRC?

Sweden, Russia, Pakistan, Canada, Cuba, Saudi Arabia, China

7.) How much of Gaza’s electricity is supplied by Israel?

None, 10%, 33%, 50%, or 70%

8.) Rank these countries in order of family home ownership.

United States, Italy, Palestinian territories, France, Germany, and Switzerland

9.) Since Arafat launched the 2nd Intifada War against Israel, the last decade has been by far the most costly in Palestinian lives in the history of Israel-Palestinian relations. How many Palestinians have died in conflict with Israel since 2000?

Less than 10,000; 10,000 – 20,000; 20,000 – 30,000; 30,000 – 40,000; or more than 40,000

10.) In the Second Intifada War against Israel, how many Palestinians were killed by other Palestinians (the “Intra-fada”)?

70; 170; 370; or 570

ANSWERS

1.) Rank these countries according to life expectancy (longest first)

i) Gaza Strip - 73.4 years

ii) Egypt - 72  iii) Brazil - 72  iv) Turkey - 72  v) World average - 66.6  vi) Russia - 66

So you can expect to enjoy an extra 16 months if you were born on the Gazan side of the Rafa Crossing than if you were born on the Egyptian side.

The average West bank Palestinian does better still, at 74.5, which may well be explained in part by Question 3.

And given that the average Gazan lives longer than the average Turk, perhaps those ‘humanitarian’ flotillas should be heading in the opposite direction.

2.) Rank these conflicts (since 1950) in terms of number of casualties.

i) Sudan civil wars - 1.9 million casualties  ii) Repression of Kurds - 300,000 

iii) Russia–Chechnya - 140,000                 iv) Burma/Myanmar - 130,000

v) Sri Lanka - 80,000     vi) Iranian Revolution - 80,000  vii) Zimbabwe - 60,000

viii) Arab-Israeli conflict 52,000

In fact the Arab-Israeli conflict comes just 49th in the list of the worst conflicts of the last sixty years, many of which are, shamefully, completely forgotten or ignored by the western press.

3.) How many Palestinians were treated in Israeli hospitals in 2010?

i) None  ii) 180   iii) 1,800   iv) 18,000   v) 180,000

These included many thousands of patients from Gaza, despite its government’s constant attacks on Israeli citizens.

Israeli hospitals would be able to treat many more Palestinians if security was not an issue. Before the 2000 Intifada was declared, any Palestinian could simply arrive at an Israeli hospital and be treated.

4.) Which of the following organs of Palestinian society are under “occupying” Israeli control?

i) Education system  ii) The judiciary  ii) The press  iv) Taxation  v) None of the above

Compare this to, say, the complete lack of autonomy of the Kurds and other minorities in Turkey.

5.) Rank these countries by rate of economic growth (GDP, 2009 figures)

i) Palestinian Territories (8%)  ii) Brazil (7.5%)  iii) Hong Kong (6.8%)   iv) Egypt (5.1%)

v) Israel (4.6%)  vi) Germany (3.5%)  vii) Australia (2.7%)

After the economic depression which accompanied Arafat’s Intifada War on Israel, and after the building of the Security Fence to protect Israelis from terrorist aggression and restore security to the West Bank, things are definitely looking brighter for the Palestinian economy.

6.) The UN Human Rights Council (UNHRC) has passed more resolutions against Israel over the Palestine question than against all other nations combined.

Which of these countries are not currently serving on the UNHRC?

Sweden and Canada are not on the UNHRC, whilst China, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Cuba and Pakistan are.

7.) How much of Gaza’s electricity is supplied by Israel?

i) none  ii) 10%  iii) 33%  iv) 50%  v) 70%

Israel supplies over 70%, Egypt a ‘generous’ 5%, with the remaining 25% coming from the Strip’s lone plant.

8.) Rank these countries in order of family home ownership.

i) Palestinian territories 84%  ii) Italy 78%  iii) United States 65%  iv) Sweden 60%

v) France 54%   vi) Germany 43%

9.) Since Arafat launched his Intifada War against Israelis, the last decade has been by far the most costly in Palestinian lives in the history of Israel-Palestinian relations.

How many Palestinians have died in conflict with Israel since 2000?

i) Less than 10,000 (Around 6,000, combatants and non-combatants.)

ii) 10,000 – 20,000   iii) 20,000 – 30,000  iv) 30,000 - 40,000   v) More than 40,000

To put this in perspective: 20,000 are feared dead in one month in 2009 of the Sri Lanka conflict

Between 50,000 and 70,000 have died in the same decade in Chechnya, whilst 35,000 people have died inMexico’s drugs wars since 2005.

10.) In the Second Intifada War against Israel, how many Palestinians were killed by other Palestinians (the “Intra-fada”)?

i) None  ii) 70  iii) 170  iv) 370    v) 570

 

Or, more precisely, 557 according to B’Tselem. For some reason, few, if any, international protests were heard on such Palestinian-on-Palestinian killings.

YOUR SCORE

8-10 Well-informed. You are probably a regular visitor to CiF Watch.

4-7 You often uncritically accept the mainstream media's coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict.

0-3 You likely read the Guardian as a serious newspaper.

 

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Sat Dec 03, 2011 13:41

here's an update on the hasbara machine's latest morphological gymnacrobatics into Ministry of Truthspeak.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=27973

Sorry to derail your train set.

by Frank Adam - private citizen Sat Dec 03, 2011 22:59

You seem to have proven your own points.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:15

But if so it was as a side effect of disproving the point(and just the one I focused on)you raised but refused to stick to.

Just to remind you, it was that Israel has no credibility for its 'peace' pretences so long as it continues its encroachments and ethnic cleansing of Palestinian land and refuses to define its borders.

Perhaps you would tell us whethert that point is proven to your satisfaction.

To most of us it seems to seem self-evident by definition, and not requiring any formal proof.

by W. Finnerty Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:48

"This past week, the latest developments from Israel include the formation of what has been called a 'strategic alliance' against war, comprising the recent former heads of all its security services: former Mossad ('CIA') head Meir Dagan, former Shin Bet ('FBI') head Yuval Diskin, and former Israeli Defence Force Chief of Staff ('Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff') Gabi Ashkenazi."
 
"Among other effective measures, Dagan has appeared twice on nationwide Israeli television over the past week, with last-minute, no-nonsense appeals against a war which in reality would be the end of Israel — along with billions of human beings and perhaps even the human species itself."
 
The above excerpts have been copied from: http://www.larouchepac.com/node/20619

by Contrarian Sun Dec 04, 2011 14:22

Brilliant post, Frank.  Kudos.  Surely a contender for post of the year.  A clear fact-based analysis that sees myths exploding faster than a convention of suicide bombers wet-dreaming about their 72 virgins.  It won't be popular around here, though. 

The following responses can be expected:

A) Ignore it and it will go away.  Your post is entirely factual and can't be contradicted so the optimum pro-Palestinian, anti-Israel strategy is to simply ignore it.  Most posters will do this.

B) Rapid change of subject.  Throw in the usual few anti-Israel buzzwords, (eg ethnic cleansing, encroachment, land stealing hasbara) but don't bother to be specific about your allegations.  Opus diablos's posts a good example of this strategy.

C) Dismissal of your post as hasbara.  Again no argument is needed, because "Hasbara" is a magic word.  Just invoking it instantly trumps any pro-Israel argument and renders further debate unnecessary.

D) A rant.  Venting of spleen, claiming MOPE (most oppressed people ever) status for Palestinians and invoking a range of real and imaginary grievances at the hands of Israel.  Usually comes complete with a range of OTT self-proving epithets such as ZioFascist, ZioNazi, genocide, holocaust etc. 

 

The following types of response are not to be expected:

1) A detailed rebuttal of your post, contextualising if appropriate and putting forward reasoned fact-based counter argument.

2) An acceptance of the correctness of your post but pointing out that there are faults on both sides and accepting thet both Palestinians and Israelis need to change their behaviour.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Sun Dec 04, 2011 14:44

But when you climb down off Frank's face and adjust yourself you might stop associating me with your projected shite that I never delivered.
Clever, but evident to anyone who bothers to look. Smear dont stick while the counter-evidence remains(you're not in one of your tame tabloids).

You might also note(the evidence is above) that what I actually did was insist frank address the point HE raised(in one of his flights of decoy ducks)whereby he calls for Arabs and Palestinians to '..end the conflict'(sic)which Israel continues to ESCALATE.

If thats insulting, I apologise to your delicate sensitivities for insisting on an outbreak of honesty and consistency.

Meantime I wish you both all the very best of luck for the nuptials and hope ye will be very happy together.

Shalom.

by Frank Adam - private citizen Sun Dec 04, 2011 17:13

Contrarian listed all the tactics used in this thread and in others in the past and many thanks for the precis.

The  little devils all the same do not wish to call off their malicious conflict because it is such splendid displacement activity from their real problems both in the Arab World and in the armchair moralist campaign in Ireland.

It is occasionally jibed that when a man can no longer be a Jew he becomes a Zionist; and evidently when a man can no longer be an antisemite he becomes an anti-Zionist.   There is no other explanantion apart from oil shares, for the depth of bent and twisted objection to Israel and such irrationally uncritical worship of the Palestine Arabs of all "liberal" causes.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Sun Dec 04, 2011 19:45

malicious??????????????

All I did was ask you to address the point YOU raised, and that i've repeated many times(next time I'll count the number to remind you).

How can Arabs stop the conflict Israel is maintaining and escalating by its settlements and displacements?

Any chance of an answer. YOU asked ME to address it, along with 8 more before you obfuscated with another two dozen.


One little point?

Please?

Then I'll move on the YOUR second point.

You can even get contra to hold your hand, I dont mind, I'm broadminded.

by wolfhound Sun Dec 04, 2011 20:17

I'd be interested to know from Opus etc which countries in the Middle East didn't have their boundaries fixed post-Ottoman or post French and British Mandates and why the Jewish nature of the Israeli state is problematical wheres the Islamic nautre of its neighbours seems not to be ?

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Sun Dec 04, 2011 20:37

well then I suggest you open a thread on that topic and I'll see if I can get round to joining your discussion.

Meantime this one seems to be about Israel, propaganda/hasbara/PR, and our government's collusion with Tel Aviv despite their cloning of our passports and piracy of our aid/relief shipping in international waters, terrorist assassinations under said cloned passports, and a set of issues Franky baby raised and then ran away from; while his posse mustered to cook up a smoke-screen.

But maybe that answers your question anyway and saves you the trouble. None of those states are fucking with my travel rights and drawing suspicion on me or my friends should we decide to go travelling.
Not that I hit Dubai every weekend..but then neither does Israel.

Or dont you use an Irish passport when you're not on duty?

I'd like to know what you think of passport cloning as means of implicating innocents in crime simply because they dont like fascism and ethnic cleansing in general.

Jews, I have as friends, but they dont approve either. Not all Jews are racist. Its the racism I object to. I lived under(well over, really, I'm white technically)apartheid.

Shalom.

by Frank Adam - private citizen Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:46

The question is not HOW can? or may? the Arabs stop the conflict while Israel does whatever;  but whether the Arab parties WISH / INTEND to stop their vendetta at all?

Given your gullibility for the current Arab favoured excuses about the Israeli building program, as already noted the Obama US government did lean on Israel hard enough for her to test the water by a building moratotarium for a year, or was it ten months, but the PA failed to take up on it.  You can sharp practice an inch once, but then you lose credibility.  

Do remember  that all Israelis know that when  the US and UK levered Israel out of Sinai in 1949 with threats, it did not lead to peace - only "The Armistice" - and when the US levered Israel out of Sinai in 1957 it did not create peace either, which is why after 1967 Israel stayed in Sinai till the Egyptians signed a peace TREATY.   This is not propaganda but in the press files.

Do consider that if the PLO and other Palestine wannabees and Arab governments did offer Israel a peace treaty they would in all probability get their Palestine State - or autonomy within Jordan or Syria - or what they want by way of self-government, but for territory there is a price to pay for spitefully keeping everybody waiting a lifetime.

Before dodging serious replies with insults and accusations of lies and propaganda do look up the newspapers of 1967. Notice that Israel immediately offered to return all the territory taken in 1967, BUT the Arab governments did not take up the offer.  The Arab states and PLO etc issued the Khartoum Declaration of No peace! No talks and no recognition.   This is all archived and witnessed.

Nations have their own ways of coping with setbacks.   Arabs just carry on irritating their opponents till they give up, or explode in a spring clean as happened in Spain - and the Israel of 1949,56,and 67 and this war is not about 1967 it was there before as I witnessed very clearly in fifties' news bulletins.    Israel on the other hand has since the Book of Job and the First Exile to Babylon usually qv Jeremiah, rolls up its sleeves, digs the garden and re-establishes its community.   The Israelis did not put down a single settlement in the 1967 territories till AFTER the Khartoum apology for a policy.   Building is what Israel can do to pressure Arab opponents and is somewhat less bloody than Arab guerilla or not so guerilla. 

If the Arab parties continue banging their heads on the bricks -in a manner of speaking  - it is not surprising they are hurting.   Try speaking as respectiful [of their opposite numbers] equals instead. 

by lefty Mon Dec 05, 2011 13:00

The "Are you immune to Israeli propaganda"  quiz:

Please take the following quiz on topics regarding Palestinian quality of life and test your knowledge with the answers provided below.

Questions

1.) Rank these countries according to unemployment rates

Gaza strip 2010, Israel 2011 

2.) Rank these opposing sides in terms of number of casualties in their 2008 encounter.

palestine,  Israel

3.) why DID so many palestinians have to go to Israeli hospitals in 2008?

4.) Why DOES israel  have to supply (i.e control!) so much of Gaza’s electricity?

5.) Which of the following vital routes to Palestinian society are under “occupying” Israeli control?

sea access, border access, air space

Answers:  

[ < 2= you may need to stop watching sky news, listening to frank / contrarian / alan shatter and going to israeli film festivals to pick up butch ex IDF women!

2-3: maybe need to a bit read more to inoculate yourself before listening to propaganda merchants like frank

4-5: well done. You are probably immune to hasbara creeps like Frank or slimebags like Mark Regev ]

1)  israel=5.4%  gaza strip:37.8%

( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_unemp..._rate )

2) A total of 1,100-1,400 Palestinians and 13 Israelis were killed in the 22-day war. of that 13, several were "friendly fire" by their fellow Israelis being "careless" with their US war toys

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Israelis_killed_by_Pa...8.png

3) The conflict damaged or destroyed tens of thousands of homes,15 of Gaza’s 27 hospitals and 43 of its 110 primary health care facilities,800 water wells,186 greenhouses, and nearly all of its 10,000 family farms; leaving 50,000 homeless,400,000-500,000 without running water,one million without electricity,and resulting in acute food shortages.

4) see above "one million without electricity"

Almost all of Gaza's liquid fuel and about half of its electricity are supplied by Israel, while Gaza's sole power plant runs on crude diesel supplied by Israel. In late October 2007, in response to persistent rocket fire on Southern Israel, the Security Cabinet of Israel decided to cut diesel exports to Gaza by 15% and gasoline exports by 10%, and to create targeted electrical outages for 15 minutes after a rocket attack. According to Israeli officials, the energy flow to hospitals and Israeli shipments of crude diesel to Gaza's sole power plant would remain unaffected. The Israeli government argued that these limited energy cuts are a non-violent way to protest against Hamas rocket attacks.[133]

The following day, Attorney General of Israel Menachem Mazuz suspended the electricity cuts, and the Israeli Supreme Court gave the government three days to justify its energy cuts policy.

On 1 December 2007, the Israeli Supreme Court ruled that the electricity cuts were unlawful, and ordered the Israeli military to stop them by the following day. In its ruling, however, the court allowed Israel to continue reducing its diesel and gasoline shipments to Gaza.


5) ALL OF THEM!

Israel has built a border fence on its border with the Gaza Strip, and the Israeli Army maintains a presence at all border crossings and regularly patrols along the fence. All humanitarian aid bound for Gaza is transferred through four border crossings: The Kerem Shalom, Karni, Erez, and Sufa crossings. All aid first undergoes security inspection before being transferred by truck into Gaza.

According to the Failing Gaza after one year report by Amnesty International and other organisations cement, glass, steel, bitumen, wood, paint, doors, plastic pipes, metal pipes, metal reinforcement rods, aggregate, generators, high voltage cables and wooden telegraph poles are "high priority reconstruction materials currently with no or highly limited entry into Gaza through official crossings." A 2009 UN report by Kevin M. Cahill called the restrictions "Draconian", and said that reconstruction is halted because Israel does not permit the importation of steel, cement or glass, among other building materials, and has restricted importation of lentils, pasta, tomato paste and juice, as well as batteries for hearing aids for deaf children. He said that despite the restrictions UNRWA has been able to provide a basic food supply to over a million refugees in the Gaza Strip. He added that he "visited a food station where hundreds of displaced persons waited to collect their meager staples of rice, sugar, lentils and cooking oil. While this program may save people from starvation, it is a diet that does not prevent the highest level of anemia in the region, with alarming rates of childhood stunting due to inadequate nutrition."[110]

In July, 2008, an UNRWA report on the situation in Gaza stated that "the number of households in Gaza below the consumption poverty line continued to grow, reaching 51.8 percent in 2007 (from 50.7 percent in 2006)". In the same year, a Palestinian Bureau of Statistics study concluded that 80% of families in Gaza were living below the poverty line. The CIA World Fact book places this figure at an estimated 70% for 2009.

A World Health Organisation assessment conducted in 2009 claimed that the level of anemia in babies (9–12 months) was as high as 65%, while a Socio-economic and Food Security Survey Report stated that 61% of Gazans are food insecure and reliant on humanitarian aid. Of those that are food insecure, 65% are children under 18 years. Lastly, a European Network of Implementing Development Agencies (EUNIDA) report notes that, because of the security buffer zone imposed around Gaza as part of the blockade, as of June 2009, 46% of agricultural land was either inaccessible or out of production.[122]

On 14 June 2010, the International Committee of the Red Cross noted that the increasing scarcity of items has led to rises in cost of goods while quality has fallen. There is also "an acute electricity crisis", where electricity supplies are "interrupted for seven hours a day on average". As a consequence, they note that public services, particularly health services, have suffered, posing "a serious risk to the treatment of patients". In addition, medical equipment is difficult to repair, and medical staff cannot leave to gain more training. Lastly, the ICRC note that sanitation is suffering, because construction projects lack the equipment needed, or the equipment is of poor quality. Only 60% of the population is connected to a sewerage collection system, with the rest polluting the Gaza aquifer. As a result, water is largely "unfit for consumption".[124]

A 25 May 2010 United Nations Development Programme report stated that, as a result of the blockade, most of Gaza's manufacturing industry has closed, and unemployment stood at an estimated 40%, a decrease on previous years. The blockade has also prevented much needed construction, noting that almost "none of the 3,425 homes destroyed during Cast Lead have been reconstructed, displacing around 20,000 people". Less than 20% "of the value of the damages to educational facilities has been repaired", only "half of the damage to the power network has been repaired", "no repair has been made to the transport infrastructure", "a quarter of damaged farmland has been rehabilitated and only 40% of private businesses have been repaired".

The sea blockade has caused damage to Gaza fishing industry. Palestinian fishing was originally to be permitted up to 20 nautical miles (37 km) offshore under the 1994 Gaza-Jericho agreement. The agreement wasn't implemented and Israel allows fishermen to travel only 3 nautical miles (5.6 km) offshore, reduced from 6 nmi (11 km) in 2007.

The Oslo Accords interim peace agreements between the Palestinian Authority and Israel specify Israeli security control over Gazan airspace and coastal waters. Gazan air space is controlled by radar. Unmanned aerial surveillance drones regularly patrol, there are regular overflights by Israeli fighter jets and a surveillance balloon is tethered near the Erez crossing.

the Yasser Arafat International Airport was destroyed by the Israeli Army in 2002, there is a remaining landing strip at the Gaza Airstrip which is potentially capable of accommodating STOL aircraft such as the DHC-7 were the air blockade to be lifted

In July 2010, British prime minister David Cameron criticized the blockade, saying "Humanitarian goods and people must flow in both directions. Gaza cannot and must not be allowed to remain a prison camp"

The Arab League has accused Israel of waging a financial war.
The IDF strictly controls travel within the area of the crossing points between Israel and the Gaza Strip, and has sealed its border with Gaza. The security environment within Gaza and along its borders, including its border with Egypt and its seacoast, is dangerous and can change at any time.
the International Committee of the Red Cross and, according to Richard Falk, most experts on international law[20] consider the blockade illegal.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Mon Dec 05, 2011 13:20

....do you manage to keep switching the question when you are pinned down on your previous question.

Back at the original question on your list(go check, Tues 29, 12:13).We'll leave the other eight till you answer that one.

Your question then was ' Are the Arab states and PLO, Hamas and Hizbollah willing to end the conflict at all.'

Go check it, and stop shifting around like some kiddy caught raiding the cookie jar. Or else desist from pretending you have any interest in a solution to this festering sore on the face of humanity.

Until you do it seems a little like Berlin sending a protest to the inmates of Auschwitz about their aggression causing wear and tear to the capos' bayonettes.

If Israel will not stop its escalation of the illegal settlements, and define its intended borders, it becomes increasingly transparent to more important witnesses than I am that the intention is domination, ethnic cleansing, the installation of a balkanised hegemony in the region, and that it has no interest in any peaceful solution other than one that guarantees the peace of the grave to all non-Likud-minded fascists.

Even Israelis are wakening to this fact on the stolen and disputed ground, so I suggest you deal with it, or stop pretending to any interest other than obfuscation and muddying.

Shalom, and again, Teshuvah.

by Felix Quigley Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:10

Frank Adam

 

 

You write above (and I am in much agreement with you)

 

Notice that Israel immediately offered to return all the territory taken in 1967, BUT the Arab governments did not take up the offer.  The Arab states and PLO etc issued the Khartoum Declaration of No peace! No talks and no recognition.   This is all archived and witnessed.

 

You are right, it is archived etc.

 

But of even more importance is to swing back to the treaty of San Remo in 1920, and the subsequent League of Nations Mandate treaty of 1923 (if you are an uncommitted reader just google these)

 

This makes it very clear that Judea and Samaria is theirs. that is is Jewish and set aside for the Jewish Homeland

 

My point being it was a betrayal to offer to give away Judea and Samaria. They were traitors to the real Jewish cause.

by Realist Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:50

nah felix don't waste your time with intermediate judgements by men.

lets go back to the bible

Gods chosen people were given the land by god. He wants them to have it.

Thats whats ultimately behind all this.  
I mean there were other more hospitable places to put an official jewish homeland that were less contested and more hospitable. But they weren't what was wanted. Its all to do with crazy biblical prophesy.

Any excuse for a bit of war and a bit of torture of other less well armed brown people. eh felix/frank/contrarian?

Lets cut to the chase:

Its not our fault we slowly tortured and killed palestinians and built settlements. 
God told us to do it to get our rightful holy land back
Ve vere only following his ohderz.

(funny how god, with all his omnipotence never just goes and does anything himself! He always has to  work through the actions of fanatics and cruel evil self serving fuckers)

Ye and the americans who believe in the rapture and fund ye to help bring it on. Ye're all a bunch o religious loonies. So are the muslims who believe some guy floated up to heaven from a specific rock there and send their kids in covered with explosives in an effort to get the rock back. Cop on the lot of ye.

There's only this life. the rest is a con. Try to be nice to each other and mAke this a nice place to live instead of making it a hell hole polluted toilet prison planet where nobody is happy because of greed and some daft fairy stories someone told you as a kid.

by For all you intrepid zionist Propagandists out there Tue Dec 06, 2011 16:41

How to fight the Israel-Apartheid analogy in four easy steps

Step one: But they have the vote

Start with fragmentation. When talking about Israel refer to a mythical state that existed between November 1966 and June 1967, the only period during which the majority of Palestinians living under Israeli control were NOT subject to military rule. Focus on the fact that Palestinians who became Israeli citizens have the right to vote. Not quite a right to vote for any party of their choice (various radical lists were disqualified over the years) but still, a right to participate in the elections.

In the process, ignore the 80% of the original inhabitants of the territories that became part of Israel in 1948, who have been physically excluded from exercising any civil and political rights in their homeland. Ignore all those who live under military occupation in the 1967 territories, with no right to vote in Israel and no say in the way their territories are governed by Israel (their own government has no power over land, water, roads, housing, development, population registration, and virtually everything else that is relevant to their lives).

Go back to those citizens (about 15% of all Palestinians) and assert how fortunate they are. Do not bother to read, convey, and consider their own feelings, words, analyses, politics. They have a very different opinion on the applicability of the notion of apartheid to their own situation, but why listen? Who is better qualified to speak on their behalf than you?

Step two: But they started it

If you really have to, talk about the refugees (remember those 80% mentioned above, who have been excluded from any presence in Israel?). They have themselves to blame for their situation. They started the war in 1948 and suffered the consequences, so what do they want from you now?

In the process avoid paying attention to inconvenient facts: that long before the 1948 war, all Palestinians residing on land bought by official Jewish agencies had to leave their homes. That no tenants living on land owned by official Zionist agencies were allowed to stay (not even on a small part of their land) once the land transaction was completed. That well before 1948, dozens of towns and hundreds of rural settlements were established by and for Jewish immigrants, and that not a single one of them allowed Palestinians to reside within their boundaries, or even find employment within them, let alone become full members of the community.

In other words, ignore the ever-expanding zone of exclusion that was created by the Zionist movement and its settlement agencies since the beginning of the 20th century, from which all Palestinians were barred. Pretend the whole thing started in 1948, and they were responsible for it. Ignore the Palestinian refugees, all of whom, regardless of their personal involvement in military affairs and political intentions, were equally barred from returning to Israel after 1948. If you also manage to ‘forget’ the massive evidence of ethnic cleansing that took place during that war, so much the better.

And remember: there are two important tasks to be performed here: erase all traces of the exclusion of the majority of Palestinians from their land (if they are not there, by definition they cannot be subject to apartheid), and pre-emptively deny any subsequent claims (if they lost their citizenship they cannot make any claim to voting and other rights).

Step three: But we are not alone

As a fallback option, admit that the situation is not perfect, but you are not the only one practicing some form of discrimination or exclusion. If everyone practices apartheid, then the specific accusation against Israel is no longer meaningful. Use whatever examples can bolster your case: Kurds in Turkey, Basques in Spain, Tibetans in China (and for the more advanced, Saharawis in Morocco), allow you to turn the tables against critics: why do they not protest first against all these other oppressive regimes? The answer may be that these are indeed situations in which minority groups are denied their right to independence. Yet, they are granted equality and the possibility of full assimilation if they so desire. Palestinians, in contrast, have neither independence nor the option of assimilation and equality, but why worry about such petty nuances?

Try another tack: what about the African/Muslim/Caribbean immigrants in Europe, subject to various restrictions on immigration, jobs, residence and political rights? Of course, they are immigrants rejected by the indigenous majority in foreign countries, while Palestinians are indigenous people denied rights in their own homeland by recently-arrived immigrants, but so what?

Or, take the legal precedent route: invoke the right of states to give preferential treatment to their ‘ethnic kin’ in the diaspora, recognised by many European countries. But, do not stop to consider that the very definition of Israel as a state of the Jewish people (but not of its indigenous Palestinians) is the source of the conflict. And that in no European country do the rights of ethnic kin come at the expense of the indigenous ethnic groups that do not form part of the ‘kin’.

Invoke other cases where ethnic and religious symbols are employed by European states, in their flag, anthem, crest and so on. That these states (UK, Greece, Sweden and others) offer all their citizens equal rights, regardless of their ethnic or religious origins, and that none of them allows differential access to resources based on ethnic or religious identity is best left out of the discussion. Rather, raise the problem that Jews and Muslims cannot become UK monarchs, never mind that 99.9% of Anglicans, who are not of royal stock, are equally deprived of that privilege.

Brutal honesty is another useful strategy, especially when you can go back to the classics: the Turks did it to the Greeks, and the Greeks did it to the Turks. The Indians did it to the Muslims, and the Pakistanis to the Hindus, the Czechs and the Poles to the Germans, and the Germans, before them, to everybody else. And keep up to date: the Serbs, Croats, and Bosnians have done it to each other. And, you have not even mentioned yet the great massacres and millions of deaths from enslavement, forced labour, dislocation, and diseases, which afflicted colonized populations in Africa and the Americas. Why single Israel out, then? Why are Israelis the only ones who have to meet the charges of apartheid?

In those cases above (Turkey-Greece, India-Pakistan, and so on), only a few percent of the respective populations were affected, while in 1948 Palestine 60% of the original indigenous population (of the entire country) became refugees; in those cases above, the bulk of the respective population remained rooted in their own territories, and retained their independence, while in the case of 1948 Palestine the entire society was dislocated and lost its ability to rule itself. But these are mere technicalities, so avoid them at will.

More importantly, in all those cases, the acts of dispossession, eviction, expulsion, dislocation, confiscation, were once-off events, even if their impact was of a long duration. Historical tragedies and great injustices they were indeed, no doubt, but life gradually returned to normal after that. Not so in Israel/Palestine: the government, parliament, political parties, military authorities, construction companies, various religious and social movements, and media organisations, continue relentlessly to re-enact the historical dispossession on a regular basis. It is not just the http://www.israeli-occupation.org/tag/nakba/ of 1948 that matters: an ongoing onslaught on Palestinians’ land, rights and demographic presence is the central issue in Israeli politics today (and has been for decades though not always with the same intensity). Literally, not a day passes without a new initiative, bill, law, regulation, and campaign to restrict, marginalise, exclude, silence and oppress Palestinians and any others (including Jews) who try to defend them and what remains of Israeli democracy.

But we digress. All this can be easily explained away by the ultimate weapon: security!

Step four: But we need security

And if all else fails, invoke the magic word, security. You are only in it for security. All you care about is survival. You build a security fence (on and through other people’s land), you have security settlements (on other people’s property), you strive to secure your existence, your boundaries, your demographic balance, your power, your rights.

You maintain the occupation because of security fears (even if you were far more secure before it), you neither annex the occupied territories (because their residents would endanger your security) nor do you leave them (because to do so would constitute a threat to your security), you establish settlements because of security reasons (even if most settlers openly deny that), you let Jews move freely in and out of the country and burden Palestinians with dozens of laws, hundreds of road blocks, thousands of military regulations, all because of security. You maintain a dual legal system (due to security), different roads (for security reasons), differential access to land and water (needless to say why), and different education systems (the s-word is responsible again). What does all that have to do with apartheid?

By Ran Greenstein, Israeli Occupation Archive – 20 Nov 2011

Ran Greenstein is an Associate Professor in the Department of Sociology at the University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg, South Africa.

by tsk tsk frankie Tue Dec 06, 2011 16:48

Denis Mac Eoin likes to write fiction under the name Daniel Easterman.

Anyone familiar with the Zionist Bernard Lewis' 'Clash of Civilisations' nonsense, and who also has had the misfortune to actually read one of Denis Mac Eoins' overt works of fiction( as opposed to his covert works of fiction - see below.) will notice a common theme.

I unfortunately have have had the dubious fortune to read one of Denis Mac Eoin/ Daniel Easterman's works of fiction (just one though, bought for 1 Euro in a bargain book shop) and immediately noticed that his works of fiction seek to promote Lewis fictional 'Clash of Civilisation' narrative

Here is the blurb to one of Mac Eoin's works of fiction :
""Professor Jack Goodrich has a prestigious job in Cairo and a happy family life with his wife and ten-year-old daughter. When he’s offered the chance to authenticate potentially priceless artefacts, including a sword, he thinks his dreams have come true. But as soon as they are in his possession, the nightmare begins with the death of his wife and daughter. The sword appears to be the property of the descendent of the Prophet Mohammed, and the people who want it will do anything to get it. Once the descendent has it he will declare jihad on all non-Muslims"

Denis Mac Eoin also is involved in the production of other works of fiction - only this time he his bits of academic paper to pretend that these other fictional works are actually factual.

One such fictional academic report Denis Mac Eoin was involved in was unmasked as a work of fiction in 2007.

Denis Mac Eoin was caught lying, as reported  in the Guardian Newspaper, when he was involved in producing what he claimed at the time was a study of 100 Mosques in the UK - the study called 'The Hijacking of British Islam' and written for the rather innocuously named 'Policy Exchange', A Zionist/Neo-Con front-group, attempted to claim "that books condoning violent jihad and encouraging hatred of Christians, Jews and gays were being sold in a quarter of the 100 mosques visited".

However an investigation of the claims by BBC's Newsnight programme found that

"examination of receipts provided by the researchers to verify their purchases showed some had been written by the same person - even though they purported to come from different mosques.

Several receipts also misspelled the names or addresses of the mosques where the books were supposedly sold."

When comment was sought from the researchers, the Zionist/Neo-Con Front-group Policy Exchange claimed, rather conveniently (and a little bit weirdly IMHO) that

"The researchers were unavailable for comment because they were all on a religious retreat in Mauritania, "

by Frank Adam - private citizen Tue Dec 06, 2011 22:09

by yes Denis Tue Dec 06, 2011 22:46

 

by Denis MacEoin is a proven LIAR Tue Dec 06, 2011 23:10

Thinking I am a nom de plume for Professor McEoin is the biggest bouquet I have ever received in this activity.

Frank Adam:  a pseudonym for rather a sad and pathetic  individual that wants to  pretend that they are "an honest" (Frank) "man" (Adam)

Denis MacEoin is a proven liar (caught lying by BBC Newsnight) and "Frank Adam" pretends that his being revealed as a pseudonym  for Denis MacEoin,  a proven liar and Anti-Muslim Bigot,  is some sort of compliment?

A proven liar like Denis MacEoin is certainly the type that would choose a pseudonym that proclaims his 'honesty' - real live honest people don't actually have to go around advertising their honesty - it's only the dishonest ones that feel the need to do that

The inner-workings of the twisted psyche of a neurotic narcissistic Bigot like Denis MacEoin sure is a very weird place

by Felix Quigley Wed Dec 07, 2011 09:00

Stop these personal attacks on frank Adam!

 

I count “proven liar” written about 5 times in about 15 lines. The propagandists for Stalin or Hitler could not have done better!

This personal type attack on Adam is a red herring in this issue. The same method was used by NATO against Milosevic, Ghagbo or Gadhafi

Repeat abuse hoping nobody is actually thinking

It only matters what Adam says, not who he is, since all those above work under a fictitious and shifting pseudonym!

This stuff has been going round and round in circles for many years on Indymedia, but it is time for a new beginning.

A big section of the Irish left lined up with the Imperialist and Jihadist destruction of Muammar Gadhafi and Libya. The same situation has existed in relation to Ben Ali, Mubarak and with Laurent Ghagbo. As we speak Mrs Clinton opens up a broadside against Vladimir Putin and the recent election. What did these SWP/IPSC types do on the Libya issue?

The time for single issue politics over this Palestine issue is long gone.

The weakness of Adam and others such as Mark Humphrys towards Israel is shown in their position towards Libya, (see Humphrys in his sheer dishonesty in http://markhumphrys.com/libya.html)

 

Those like Adam who SAY they are in support of Israel and the Jews I would like to know where they stand on these other issues of the day.

Did he defend Muammar Gadhafi against NATO/Sharia/UN/Obama/Cameron/Sarkozy?

 

by Felix Quigley Wed Dec 07, 2011 09:23

By Caroline B. Glick, JPOST

With vote tallies in for Egypt’s first round of parliamentary elections in it is abundantly clear that Egypt is on the fast track to becoming a totalitarian Islamic state. The first round of voting took place in Egypt’s most liberal, cosmopolitan cities. And still the Muslim Brotherhood and the Salafists received more than 60 percent of the vote. Run-off elections for 52 seats will by all estimates increase their representation.

And then in the months to come, Egyptian voters in the far more Islamist Nile Delta and Sinai will undoubtedly provide the forces of jihadist Islam with an even greater margin of victory.

Until the US-supported overthrow of Hosni Mubarak, Egypt served as the anchor of the US alliance system in the Arab world. The Egyptian military is US-armed, US-trained and US-financed.

 

That is the most recent words of Caroline Glick on the issue. Is she right? Is there anything in this which is inaccurate?

 

So the US has just set in process events which have led to political control in Egypt to extreme Muslim Brotherhood.

 

This is the gravest blow to Israel. All caused by the actions of US Imperialism in the area.

 

I would like very much to know where Frank Adam stands on the issue of US Imperialism and Israel? Is US imperialism not the ENEMY of Israel?

by Declan Cullen Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:17

In relation to a story in the Irish Indo: http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/palestini....html One needs to be careful that this is not Israel crying 'Wolf' again. Israel was responsible for the creation of Hezbollah (believe it or not) in order to have an enemy figure to point at and say - 'Look', 'See', those people over there want to harm us'. Much in the same manner as the CIA created Osama Bin Laden (Code name: Tim Osman). Without this boogeyman Israel would not continue to receive the billion of dollars of financial and military aid from America on an annual basis. Coincidentally, much of that military aid is flown through Shannon Airport on route to Israel (so much for being a neutral country). But that's another story. The moto of MOSSAD is 'By way of deception, thou shall do war' and they have years of experience in the deception game.(Research: Lavon Affair & USS Liberty) Israel was responsible for the 2005 bombings in Egypt that were blamed on Al-Qaeda by the US media, and they were never challenged on their source. Their source was MOSSAD. People need to do their homework about the crimes of Israel and waken up to the fact that this country, who is always playing victim, is in fact, a clever wolf in sheep's clothing, and has been since its creation in 1948.

by Felix Quigley Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:30

Declan

 

Give just one source for one claim you have just made, say on Hizbullah, never mind your spelling (moto?)

by Frank Adam - private citizen Wed Dec 07, 2011 14:51

This is a thread discussing Israel; however even in its bent Leninist meaning, arguing about imperialism is like objecting to the weather, or, if you cannot ride two horses at once what are you doing in the circus?   Most is an excuse to be priggish about the USA but the Soviet variant was no better and Africa has already started being wary of the Chinese variant. Small nations and states have always had and have to tip toe between the tulips and if you cannot, then you have missed the point that independence is relative and even the US (isolationists and anti-greens) learnt the hard way it cannot be independent of the planet.  Incidentally the Arab World was created by imperialism of the traditional military sort and had its heyday in the Middle Ages, like all the others on balance benefitting mankind by spreading knowledge, trade, plants and much good practice.   There are no US troops currently in Israel nor the rest of the Levant and North Africa unlike in the times of the British, Romans, Turks and Arabs.

 

As for Gadaffi I remember the Colonel’s seizure of power – so constitutional – and such a brilliant example of the nasties of the Arab World:  sending agents to try and push poisoned sweets at the children of exiles and shooting an unarmed police woman from the window of an embassy - model respect for international law!    It is odd how only pro-western Arabs and others get a pasting from the Left and when the friends of the erstwhile USSR misbehave, the grouplets of the Left forget that Liberty Equality and Fraternity and democratic redress are what the Left are about, and take refuge in the displacement activity of nit picking rather than keep an eye on the ball of reality.  The funniest irony in all this is that Israel survived its War of Independence from the Arab World 1948 round because “Uncle Joe” Stalin let the Czechs send Israel a stash of surrendered German weapons and British Spits surplus because The Good Soldier Schweik were refurbishing with Soviet aircraft and other weapons.  Runner up is that Irish independence depended to a larger degree than admitted both sides of the water on US pressure and UK caginess of US opinion.

 

It is peculiar how Israel’s enemies so often are a generation out with their intelligence:  there were indeed several hundred checkpoints across the PA while Israel fought the Second Intifada;  but with its end by exhaustion, the death of that loser Arafat, mediation by the able but maligned Tony Blair, and some good technocratic management by Fayad the economy is well up, unemployment down and the internal road blocks are withdrawn.  However as we (?) all recognize that the PA and Israel are separate (don’t we?) it follows that border control remains.  If the PA Citizens want to be PA and not Israelis then it follows they are not entitled to citizenry privileges within Israel.   Just because Ireland and UK are at peace and the UK is not a nit-picker about Irish citizens and trade in Britain, does not oblige Israel to be as generous with the PA and its theological nut cases who only want to destroy her.  

 

Israel has allowed PA Arabs jobs and medical visits but that did not do as much as expected to calm the overarching politics; so now the privilege has been understandably largely withdrawn.   The Arab prosperity of the thirty years after 1967 resulting from Israel generosity is what trebled the PA Arab population while it had flat-lined under Jordan and Egypt. In retrospect it was well intentioned mistake given now that the two peoples have drawn apart the PA is faced with a serious population and jobs reconciliation not helped by the PA Arabs effusing to have anything to do with birth control under the misguided policy that they can retake all Palestine with maternity ward politics.   That is a mistake too as when people are cornered they turn militant, and as the Arab Spring has shown that violence can turn inwards.

 

Similarly with the ethnic kin theme. Europe’s the nation states are well enough established and internally at peace for all citizens to muck in together and keep politics for the most part to who gets and pays what?  The converse broke off the Soviet fringe and split Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia – and Ireland for that matter.  If the Arabs refuse to be part of Israel that is their problem and Darwish left - with a PhD in Hebrew Literature.  If the Arab neigbours of Israel refuse to accept her and let her be in peace, that makes problems for Israeli Arabs and PA Arabs as backwash from the military situation the Arab states and Palestine Arabs themselves refuse to turn off on any terms apart from Israel’s disappearance.  When there is a military threat then even model societies can turn ugly and in both World Wars Germans in UK US were interned like British in Germany in 1914 – 18;  and the US and Canada interned in their interiors their citizens and residents of Japanese origins.  Comparatively Israel has treated its Arab citizens well.  Many would say she could have been more generous and with prosperity and relative security from conventional military threats these forty years their socio-economic position is much improved and their representation among the student body is on par with their percentage in the population.    Meanwhile emigrants settled abroad in the Americas and Australasia do not have a right to vote in Europe or Africa.  

 

Interestingly there is currently a test comparison in the UK in the attempt of the RC community especially in Scotland to secure the amendment of the 1701(?) Act of Settlement which finally after the Stuart shenanigans banned RCatholics from the UK throne, or marriage to the UK monarch.   In those centuries being RC or Protestant was an important aspect and programme in the politics and identity of Europe inclusive England and UK which had caused troubles in Britain.  When ideology moved on, to the Enlightenment and the Franco –American Revolution and after Waterloo UK was perfectly secure in itself, then it was possible to move for RC emancipation (Grattan) though not without loyalty pledges for public office.  They went in Baldwin’s Catholic Disabilities (Removal) Act (1925?) but by then the hostile ideology was atheistic Communism so anybody with a keen religion could be presumed on-side. 

 

Now the last vestiges of this mindframe are being weeded.  It is a pity that a sixth of the world population is still medieval enough to wish to inflict itself with weapons on its neighbours in the name of pie- in- the- sky aspects of  religion.  It is totally regrettable that far Left grouplets who like all the Left originated in one of the greater rebellions against abuse of clerical office, should be so willing to be led by the nose in Salafi and Jihadi Moslem attempts to subvert secular society.

 

Finally pro tem if those who wish to know why the PA, especially Gaza, is short of power stations and hospitals and an airport, just trace the Arafat and Co embezzled millions in Switzerland and other non-PA enterprises.   There is also the silly exemption state of UNWRA and the Arab refugees of 1948 of whom on life expectancy alone it is unlikely there are 150 000 still alive. If that money instead of being frittered retail on individual families, had been used wholesale on building socio- economic infrastructure: roads, sewers, schools and hospitals, then it would have created jobs, quality of life and taken off into an economy.   Out of basest UN Tammany heeler’s/ log rolling/ backscratching, UNWRA has been allowed as an Arab exemption to resettlement after wars instead of being amalgamated into UNHCR and being wound down and its breeding cesspit of extremists with it.  Which other people/ nation is allowed a particularist UN organ – two actually given the UN committee on the rights of Palestine, which could all be free and practised with the end of the conflict.

by JoeMc Wed Dec 07, 2011 16:25

"Thinking I am a nom de plume for Professor McEoin is the biggest bouquet I have ever received in this activity."
I suppose it must be a great honour for a louse like Frank Adams to be mistaken for himself . As somebody who never gets beyond a few lines of Frank Adams' Islamophobia when it appears on this site , I must say I admire the scholarly poster who trawled the bargain buckets for the sake of enduring one of Professor McEoin's entire books .

by 'Frank Adam@=Noted Anti-Muslim BIGOT, Denis MacEoin Wed Dec 07, 2011 18:33

The Zionist Felix, supporter of the openly racist Zionist State, asked Declan to "Just give one source there declan - Give just one source for one claim you have just made, say on Hizbullah, never mind your spelling (moto?)"

Well firstly Declan was wrong to claim Hezbollah was financed by Israel, something which would have been pretty bad in itself were it true, but the truth is even worse - it was Hamas that Israel financed. they did so in an effort to draw Palestinian support away from the Secular PLO and to create a Religious counterpart to the Secular PLO - all so that they could then have someone to point at and call "religious crazies" - it's the age-old 'Divide and conquer" strategy beloved of Imperialists through the centuries

http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2002...5587/

"Israel and Hamas may currently be locked in deadly combat, but, according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years.

Israel "aided Hamas directly -- the Israelis wanted to use it as a counterbalance to the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization)," said Tony Cordesman, Middle East analyst for the Center for Strategic Studies.

Israel's support for Hamas "was a direct attempt to divide and dilute support for a strong, secular PLO by using a competing religious alternative," said a former senior CIA official.

According to documents United Press International obtained from the Israel-based Institute for Counter Terrorism, Hamas evolved from cells of the Muslim Brotherhood, founded in Egypt in 1928. Islamic movements in Israel and Palestine were "weak and dormant" until after the 1967 Six Day War in which Israel scored a stunning victory over its Arab enemies.

After 1967, a great part of the success of the Hamas/Muslim Brotherhood was due to their activities among the refugees of the Gaza Strip. The cornerstone of the Islamic movements success was an impressive social, religious, educational and cultural infrastructure, called Da'wah, that worked to ease the hardship of large numbers of Palestinian refugees, confined to camps, and many who were living on the edge.

"Social influence grew into political influence," first in the Gaza Strip, then on the West Bank, said an administration official who spoke on condition of anonymity.

According to ICT papers, Hamas was legally registered in Israel in 1978 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the movement's spiritual leader, as an Islamic Association by the name Al-Mujamma al Islami, which widened its base of supporters and sympathizers by religious propaganda and social work.

According to U.S. administration officials, funds for the movement came from the oil-producing states and directly and indirectly from Israel. The PLO was secular and leftist and promoted Palestinian nationalism. Hamas wanted to set up a transnational state under the rule of Islam, much like Khomeini's Iran.. . . .

 . . . . .According to former State Department counter-terrorism official Larry Johnson, "the Israelis are their own worst enemies when it comes to fighting terrorism."

"The Israelis are like a guy who sets fire to his hair and then tries to put it out by hitting it with a hammer."

"They do more to incite and sustain terrorism than curb it," he said."

BTW - how's my spelling Felix? did I spell 'openly racist' correctly?

by 'Frank Adam'= Noted Anti-Muslim BIGOT Denis MacEoin Wed Dec 07, 2011 18:42

Sorry to disappoint you, Zionist Felix, but if you think I'm just going to ignore the fact that Denis MacEoin, who posts here under the pseudonym 'Frank Adam',  is a proven LIAR and known Anti-Muslim Bigot then you are sorely mistaken -

Not only has Denis Mac Eoin been caught lying (by BBC Newsnight) while operating under his own name, in his guise as 'Frank Adam' he has also been found out to be a fairly persistant and notorious liar here at indymedia.ie.

In almost every thread Denis/'Frank' posts in he usually manages to insert, at an absolute minimum, one very obvious lie. He has been caught doing this many many times.  Denis/'Frank Adam' obviously  has little regard for anything even remotely approaching the truth, something he has demonstrated time and time again here at Indymedia.ie

by W. Finnerty Wed Dec 07, 2011 18:46

Personally, I believe I will always feel extremely grateful for the way Russia recently "stepped in" -- to deter an Israeli pre-emptive strike on Iran -- in the manner described (in the Russian language with English translations) in parts of the video at the following address:
http://www.larouchepac.com/node/20565

Had Russia not "stepped in" this way, which involved putting many of their military people in harm's way, I'm more than half-convinced we might all have been well and truly frazzled (from nuclear radiation and suchlike) by now.

What makes me feel all the more grateful for this particular piece of Russian action, is that the rest of world -- on the face of things at least -- all appear (to me) have stood back and done nothing whatsoever of any value to prevent a catastrophic escalation of the present warmongering now taking place in and around the Middle East, and more recently in and around North Western Australia as well.

There is the ongoing worry though that the threat of a soon-to-be thermonuclear WW3 has by no means fully past (I believe), for reasons such as those very recently put forward at:
http://www.larouchepac.com/node/20671

One final point: action of the kind Russia took in this particular situation, seems to me to really show up the major inadequacies of having to rely solely on such things as street protests, huffing and puffing on talk-shows, Internet articles/comments, and so on: in connection with such extremely dangerous and tricky situations.

"Never send a boy on a man's errand" seems to me to be the main lesson of this recent Russian intervention.

Epilogue:

"To the Celts (or Keltoi as the ancient Greeks called them), the Esker Riada was know as 'An Slí Mór': which means 'The Great Highway'. According to the Greeks, and as alluded to in Homer's epic poem the Odyssey (in Book XI, line 16), written around the 8th century BC, the Celts seem to owe their origins to the much earlier Cimmerian and Scythian peoples: who, in the very dawn of human history, are believed to have inhabited parts of the area now known as the Ukraine (in Russia)."

The above excerpt is from:
http://homepage.eircom.net/~williamfinnerty/chaplefinne...1.htm

by 'Frank Adam'= Proven LIAR, Denis MacEoin Wed Dec 07, 2011 18:53

Felix if you think that the words and putrid-reasoning of the openly racist idiot Caroline Glick are in anyway worthy of serious consideration you are probably in  the wrong place.

You and Denis MacEoin should team-up and open your own website where you can both cuddle up together and argue over the merits (or lack of same) of the brain-dead paranoia and complete dissociation from reality, so frequently  displayed by Zionist Racists such as Ms Glick

by Jnr Wed Dec 07, 2011 21:02

Frank, I think you have scared "Rosenbud" back to life, that can only be her ranting liar liar.

Declan, comical posts, nearly as good as your 9/11 theories.

The learned leftist pro palestinian terrorist supporters are few and far between in Ireland (thank God, Allah or whoever he might be) as anyone can see from the "huge" protest at the Isaraeli film festival.

But shure hey, let them rant on here, its their little ego trip, no-one else in the country really pays them any heed.

 

by Denis MacEoin and his Lies Wed Dec 07, 2011 22:12

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/dec/20/thi...tives

"But last week, BBC's Newsnight programme - previously not shy of running inflammatory items itself on the Muslim community - revealed that a forensic examination of five receipts provided by Policy Exchange for the material had found them to be either faked, written by the same person, and/or were not issued by the mosques in question. A sixth receipt was also regarded as unreliable.

It might be supposed that receipts from the other 20 mosques were nevertheless found to be authentic and that Policy Exchange's basic case held. Not so. Newsnight didn't have the resources to check them. But it has since emerged that in one of these cases, Edinburgh central mosque, the mosque authorities insist books said by Policy Exchange to have been found there were in fact dumped in its grounds after the report was published. In another, the Times has this week had to publish an apology to East London mosque chairman Dr Muhammad Abdul Bari, after reporting Policy Exchange's claim that the mosque was selling extremist literature.

Yesterday I contacted yet another mosque, Rochdale Central, claimed by Policy Exchange to have provided a receipt for extremist literature. No, said the imam, Hafiz Ikram, "we haven't got a bookshop and we don't sell books. Once or twice a year, people set up stalls in the carpark outside the mosque after Friday prayers, but they have nothing to do with us." That makes all nine receipts so far investigated either fabricated or inaccurate."

by Anti-MacEoinism Wed Dec 07, 2011 23:26

http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/islamophobia-watch/20....html

Denis MacEoin who was responsible for the discredited Policy Exchange report The Hijacking of British Islam among other axe-grinding anti-Muslim "studies", has posted a  review of Gilbert Achcar's book The Arabs and the Holocaust on the Amazon website. - http://www.amazon.co.uk/review/RDE9JCNXC19TK/ref=cm_cr_...Code=

Not that MacEoin has actually bought the book, much less read it.

But he has no hesitation in warning potential purchasers that Achcar is an unreliable historian, beginning with the charge that "He's an Arab...."

As one of the comments on MacEoin's "review" points out: "One can imagine the uproar from you and your ilk if the assertion you make was followed by 'He's a Jew'."

Just as there is plenty of evidence for MacEoin's dishonesty and bigotry when operating under his real name, there is also plenty of evidence for his dishonesty and bigotry when posting here at Indymedia.ie using the pseudonym 'Frank  Adam' (which i suppose is MacEoin's fairly pathetic attempt to portray himself as an 'honest (Frank) man (Adam)')

by Anti-Maceoinism Thu Dec 08, 2011 00:11

Further down the Amazon page linked to in my previous comment i found this little gem:
"I see that you gave a glowing review on Amazon to Beth Maceoin's 'Homeopathy: The Practical Guide for the 21st Century' but neglected to mention that you were the author's husband. Perhaps you should have done so.

It gets worse than this though, doesn't it Denis? You also write novels under the pen-name Daniel Easterman and then post glowing reviews of them on Amazon under your real name."

So,not only does Denis MacEoin/Frank Adam review his wee wifies books on Amazon, without declaring that he is married to the author, he also reviews his own books, written under the pseudonym 'Daniel Easterman', in his own name without declaring that he his the author reviewing his own books!

hahahahahahahahahahah

Denis MacEoin/'Frank Adam' - you really have no shame at all, at all, have you?

Your talents for engaging in pure narcissism and outright deception are extraordinary, even by the fairly high-standards set by your fellow Zionists and Anti-Muslim bigots.

No wonder that you teamed up with that other legendary racist, fantasist, and all-round Zionist Liar,  Daniel Pipes (http://islamophobiawatcher.blogspot.com/2007/07/ah-ha-a....html) - you two make a perfect pair

by Felix Quigley Thu Dec 08, 2011 09:45

To those who attack Frank Adam in this ad hominem way you should realize that you cannot win like this, no more than could the Stalinists against Leon Trotsky. You may win a few temporarily but you cannot win in the long road.

There are vital issues concerning the destruction of the gadhafi Libyan Government and now I focus on what is happening in Syria

Frank Adam has written above in a piece which ranges over many issues but it is on Libya that I wish to focus because that also draws us in to dealing not in abstractions but into what is happening in Syria:

As for Gadaffi I remember the Colonel’s seizure of power – so constitutional – and such a brilliant example of the nasties of the Arab World:  sending agents to try and push poisoned sweets at the children of exiles and shooting an unarmed police woman from the window of an embassy - model respect for international law!    

"It is clear from this that you more or less took the same position towards the NATO/Muslim Brotherhood war on Muammar Gadhafi that Mark Humphry has taken and this is the problem, and a very big problem indeed it is.

In this respect many of the left people on this site Indymedia are OBJECTIVELY FAR MORE OF A FRIEND to Israel than you and Mark Humphry actually are.

That is the sad dialectic of the situation in Ireland today.

I am saying that any person who did not instinctively and actually defend Gadhafi against the lies of NATO and the World Wide Media cannot in all reality be a true friend to Israel.

The most dangerous enemy of Israel today is not the Arab Governments, or the Iranian Government, but it is the US Government, because the former are open in their hostility to Israel and in essence to Jews, but the US poses as a friend to Israel, but is actually in league with Arab oil, and sticks a knife into the back of Israel at every turn.

The correct position for Israeli leadership to take towards the war by NATO on Gadhafi was not isolationist, but to state in open language that they were totally opposed to the war on Muammar Gadhafi, that while there were serious political differences with Gadhafi, while this war on Gadhafi was going on that they Israel would line up with Gadhafi and against NATO.

Exactly the same situation was seen in the NATO/Muslim Brotherhood in Tunisia, Egypt, Ivory Coast, and now in Syria.

Of all of these Syria is the most important because the rest are over and major defeats have happened and Syria is the present.

Forget Frank Adam and Mark Humphrey…that is the past.

A new leadership is needed among Jews and in Zionism.

I say that Israel should defend Assad AGAINST NATO unconditionally

This way of thinking may seem strange to people like Adam and Humphrey, but then they have never met a real Trotskyist movement fighting for principle in the confused politics of present day life.

My language on this is clear and is concrete.

1.     Israel should express its solidarity with Assad and against NATO/Muslim Brotherhood/World Wide Media etc.

2.     Israel should offer an alliance, both verbal and physical, with Assad against those who are also the bitter enemies of the Jews and Israel, against NATO, the US, Clinton Cameron sarkozy and all, against the Muslim Brotherhood Jihadists

3.     At the same time Israel must make clear that it opposes all signs of anti-Semitism, of the Arabs and of the Iranian leadership, and that it will also do everything in its power to defend its country against attack

In fact, Assad, just as did Gadhafi towards the end, has done a great favour to Israel, to socialists, and to all Jews who fight to defend Israel. It is a favour of incalculable benefit, and to all real socialists.

What is this favour? Assad in his interview with Barbara Walters has last night called the UN and the World Wide Media for what it actually is, a bunch of disreputable liars

(speaking from my memory of the interview broadcast on BBC) Barbara Walters asked Assad what about the reports of the Media about the killings by the Army, and in the eyes of the Media there is always a focus on a child.

Assad replied let us have the reports with documentation and stated that the Media was disreputable.

Beaten back on that one Barbara Walters then countered by saying “But the UN also has made reports on these killings”

Quick as a flash Assad states to Walters that the UN is a discredited organization.

Walters countered by saying “But you send Ambassadors to the UN”

Assad was not to be outdone by this journalistic hag and let her know in no unmistakable terms that “The UN is a game. We are all playing the game (at the UN)

Until socialists break from this sickly support of the UN, and even worse in the case of the SWP, of NATO, then there can be no socialist leadership AT ALL in Ireland.

Assad has helped this along immensely. This bourgeois Arab nationalist politician has given a huge impetus to real socialists

by Frank Adam - private citizen Thu Dec 08, 2011 14:44

It seems friend Finnerty prefers to be kosher vapourised by an Iranian nuke than hallal fried by an Israeli nuke - if existent?  He is certainly right that there is still an N- risk in the Middle East.  However on precedent it is from those who..." love death more than the West loves life,"  then bring up their children in the misbegotten frame of mind that being a martyr and or kamikaze is the proper thing to rear children in!  They may yet have reason to regret what they pray for because as in a previous era there are a lot of people about who would welcome any excuse to finally get rid of the religious blinkered who think it is more important to mither hard working families with the fripperies of prayer rites and details of congregational uniform than to earn an honest living, pay cash on the nail and get a life!

For the "bretheren" living in delusions of mistaken identity, I challenge them to list a single alleged lie from each of my contributions to this thread, or any other.   

While I have had two or three Moslem colleagues in my career, and several tens of Moslem pupils, I have never been involved in mosque finances, nor published a book - yet, though this site is suggesting an idea.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Thu Dec 08, 2011 14:47

Is that the same Felix who regularly posts here defending  Israel??That great paragon of international piracy and assassination...not least under the falsified aegis of forged Irish passports.
And then you follow that with a call for the demolition of the UN, rather than the required reform?Very internationalist....but then it seems you are again seeking the balkanisation of the planet to suit the global dividers as exemplified by apartheid Zion. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to the source of your version of international law. The Knesset?The Talmud?

Was Trotsky also as consistent as yourself?

by W. Finnerty Fri Dec 09, 2011 09:29

‘West’s policy on Syria could ignite WWIII’
 
 “President Obama is acting on a British geopolitical plan to force a confrontation with Russia and China, a military confrontation of which Syrian and Iran would nearly be the ignition point,” Freeman explained. “But the real goal is a war to stop the progress that Russia and China are engulfed in.”
 
 The above excerpts are from: http://rt.com/news/syria-iran-russia-china-921/
 
 See also:
 
 "Russian election watchdog in cahoots with US to discredit Duma poll"
 http://rt.com/news/election-america-golos-support-393/

by lefty Fri Dec 09, 2011 15:33

frank adam said :  "than hallal fried by an Israeli nuke - if existent? "

very glad you brought that up frank

from this statement it is clear that frank is an official Israeli apologist / propagandist. He is seeking to perpetuate the Israeli denial of the existence of Israeli nukes even though the dogs in the street know that Israel has 200+ nukes thanks to the courage of Mordechai Vanunu.

The reason this denial continues and the punishment of Mordechai Vanunu was so spiteful (even though if what frank is suggesting means he must have just made up a story? is fantasy a serious crime in Israel? can't have it both ways Frank!!! :D )
is because the US cannot give aid to countries with illicit nuclear programs not belonging to and adhering to the NPT yet the US gives billions of aid every year to israel.  If Israel admitted to having these nukes all these years then they could no longer get all these billions of  (mainly military) aid and might have to pay back a few billion to the US taxpayer in these austere times.

tell me frankly frank does israel have nukes or not? yes or no.

If there is an illicit israeli nuclear program not part of NPT. we must have immediate sanctions, possibly an airstrike with bunker busters & all options remain on the table.
or perhaps that response is too hysterical for you frank? 
Hmmm... exactly where have I heard such words before?

Total Hypocrisy!!

by Frank Adam - private citizen Fri Dec 09, 2011 15:42

Does Obama really need a British geopolitcal plan?  Since the 1920 Washington Naval Treaty the US has been fairly consistent in heaving bricks through British windows.

What makes rt any more reliable than Fox news?

Since when does Iran not have ambitions to impose its variant of Islam on the Moslem World - and the rest of us?

by Frank Adam - private citizen Fri Dec 09, 2011 16:13

Nations are not, and usually can not be obliged to sign treaties (any more than persons can be obliged to marrry) as can be seen by the obstinate refusals of Syria and Iraq to sign a peace treaty with Israel.  For that matter it is not obligatory to sign up to being a member of the UN which Switzerland refrained from till very recently.   Vice versa also applies given the European Nato members refused to have Spain in till Franco croaked.

Sovereignty matters even with small nations and for citizens of a small nation that spent half its history objecting to the neighbour's meddling some of you can be remarkably imperialist at times.

What is illegal and illicit is to sign a treaty eg the NPT as Iran has, and then break it.

Before you admire Vanunu too warmly consider that it is precisely his action that has needlessly accelerated the Middle East chemical and nuclear arms races which till then were basically frozen.   It is Arab parties and Iranian extremists who call for Israel to be destroyed or to vanish.   Israel has never reciprocated and certainly does not, never has, rattled nuclear prospects - after all the Arabs do it so well for her - rather like you never saw Vera Lynn be nasty to anybody - because she had Harry Lewis to do it for her!

If that all ends with the Jamkaran Mosque in North Tehran from which the Shia Twelfth Imam is supposed to materialise going up in a mushroom cloud along with the other "Holy Cities" then many people will not be sorry, especially if the aggressively proselytising Shiia Iranians also take a pot shot at Rome as well as Israel.

by tsk tsk Frankie Fri Dec 09, 2011 16:28

Proven  Anti-Muslim bigot, proven liar and party to forgery Denis MacEoin/Frank Adam said: "For the "bretheren" living in delusions of mistaken identity,"

No Delusions here Denis - I know you are Denis M. MacEoin - noted Anti-Muslim bigot, proven liar and party to forgery. Anyone that wants to compare the silly, narcissistic buffoonish terribly-turgid rambling mostly-off-topic evasive  off-the-cuff prosestyle of Denis MacEoin with that of our own putrid Frankie-boy can simply click on the Amazon.com link posted above to see how similar  are Denis's and wee Frankie's hate-filled cluless rambling rant  (And don't worry if he deletes it - I've got it saved ;-)

 "I challenge them to list a single alleged lie from each of my contributions to this thread, or any other. "

Oh that's just toooooo easy Denis - all I have to do is look at the comment I just quoted from - there are at least 2 lies in that comment.

The first blatant deliberate LIE was your attempt to imply that Iran has  an active  nuclear weapons program - we all know that is a lie - if there were ANY evidence for it the US would have found it by now, after examing the intel received from the 4 yrs of drone flights they have been conducting over Iran, or from the images/sig-intel gathered by the satelittes  they have trained on Iran for decades.

The second lie was when you tried to maintain that Israel DOES NOT have a (very active and dangerous) nuclear weapons programme

Seriously Denis, this silly blustering buffonish carry -on of your's indicates that you think everyone else is as thick as you yourself are -

by tsk tsk Denis Fri Dec 09, 2011 16:35

Denis you little menace - as soon as I answer your silly demand to provide evidence of your lies, you go and do it again!! -

"What is illegal and illicit is to sign a treaty eg the NPT as Iran has, and then break it."

Iran has never broken the NPT - ever! You simply stating over and over and over and over  . . . (ad neasuem) that they have, won't make it so, Denis. You Zio-Racists are so weird - you think that if you just scream whatever lies you like that they will somehow magically come true

Plaese stop lying Denis - that's a minimum of  3 blatant deliberate lies you have told in just 2 comments

by Felix Quigley Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:59

This is mainly rubbish. Syria is not a warm up it is the real thing. To say it is a warm up is to say that Libya was a warm up. It is rubbish talking like that.

The central question for socialists is how the SWP in Ireland addressed Libya. The SWP joined with NATO and with the new friends of NATO in the Muslim Brotherhood to depose the legal government in Libya.

Except that this is not REALLY new at all. NATO in the Balkans joined with the Nazi Izetbegovic against the Bosnian Serbs, and NATO joined with the KLA racists in Kosovo to tear Kosovo away from Serbia, and to really ethnically cleanse Kosovo of Serbs, jews and Gypsies (Romany)

Syria is not a dress rehearsal. People have to state clearly (Opus Diablos never states anything clearly…clear sign of a troll) where they stand on Syria. I am saying that Assad must be defended with everything possible.

Also Russia can look after itself against these pygmies in the BBC Jihad against Russia and China.

I offer a prediction: Putin will emerge out of this conspiracy by Clinton, the BBC, Human Rights Watch et al much strengthened in Russia

 

The situation in Syria is just a warm-up before a real confrontation, which will draw Russia and China into action, believes Lawrence Freeman from the Executive Intelligence Review magazine.

­Russia and China are rightly worried about what is behind the policy of the US and its allies in Syria and Iran, Freeman told RT.

“President Obama is acting on a British geopolitical plan to force a confrontation with Russia and China, a military confrontation of which Syrian and Iran would nearly be the ignition point,” Freeman explained. “But the real goal is a war to stop the progress that Russia and China are engulfed in.”

by Felix Quigley Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:11

W Finnerty

Thanks for the valuable links to RT

 

In my opinion the second link you mention bears out my prediction. the Russians under Putin are well able to handle this hag Clinton

 

Putin will win this and Clinton will lose. Expect Putin to use this inside Russia in a big way.

 

Still, very valuable links on RT.

 

None of this alters my position on the great danger to Jews and Israel from the Iranian Nuclear Bomb and that is connected to the story at top so this is all relevant

by Felix Quigley Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:23

Opus diablos

 

you write "And then you follow that with a call for the demolition of the UN, rather than the required reform?"

 

Who would ever call for the reform of the UN except somebody who supported the SWP ireland in the UN/NATO destruction of Libya, and the murder of Muammar Gadhafi?

 

No revolutionary socialist worth his salt would support the UN in the slightest, but would call for its destruction totally. TYhe UN IS Imperialism!

 

Opus what about that CIA plant in the SWP, you never did come clean on that.

 

by lefty Sat Dec 10, 2011 19:44

(not so) "Frank" Adams said: "What is illegal and illicit is to sign a treaty eg the NPT as Iran has, and then break it."

Soooo  by that logic, Iran should just leave the NPT altogether then everything would be peachy and the sanctions and threats and media hatchet campaigns would immediately stop and they would be treated just like Israel is now? And they could maybe start a nuclear weapons program  and build up oh, say,  200+ nukes just like Israel without a murmur?

by 'Frank Adam'= Denis MacEoin Sat Dec 10, 2011 23:40

And they could maybe start a nuclear weapons program  and build up oh, say,  200+ nukes just like Israel  . . . "

 . . . .without a murmur from a bigotted Anti-Muslim proven LIAR and party to forgery like Denis MAcEoin, or from a completely deluded  crypto-National-Socialist like Zionist Felix Quigley??

by Felix Quigley Sun Dec 11, 2011 08:24

It is a disease, this (so called) left world outlook, to them everything is inverted and the world is truly upside down. So Iran is not a problem for Israel even though it has nonstop been calling Israel a cancer, for years now, and there is just the possibility to put it at its very weakest that they prepare nuclear bombs. Place the two together, their language and the possibility and that should make any left person think…danger

 

Take a good researcher like F. William Engdahl and you have some terrific research concerning the US Empire, even referring to the valuable concept “creative destruction” in his first paragraph, but read further and he views the world almost upside down also. (Egypt's revolution: Creative Destruction for a "greater Middle East" by F. William Engdahl of Feb 5, 2011)

 

Move down to paragraph 5 and he is claiming that Mubarak represented a major obstacle to the US in the region.

The blindness of Engdahl on this score is massive. The reason that Mubarak (as well as Gadhafi, Baghbo, Ben Ali) had to be defeated by the US Empire was and is precisely the opposite to what Engdahl claims.

Engdahl says that Mubarak was opposed to the US policy towards Iran, and by this Engdahl means that Mubarak was on the side of Iran, and was opposed to the position of Israel, who feared Iran with a deep fear.

In the mind of Engdahl (on Feb 5 2011) there is Israel backed by the US on the one hand, and on the other there are the Arabs and Iran, who are opposed to Israel and the US.

But this was not so, in February. The situation had changed and now the US was on the side of "extreme Islam" and was no longer on the side of Israel. Engdahl had missed this totally.

Not at all what Engdahl thinks

The situation had turned around and this is what Engdahl somehow missed.

 

Mubarak was also, like Israel, petrified by Iran.

So was Gadhafi!

So was Ben Ali!

So are the Algerians and so are almost all of the Arab Governments and leaders because all of these leaders are petrified of the Muslim Brotherhood and the power of warlike Islam across their borders.

And Engdahl has precisely, spectacularly missed out on the real reason and rationale behind the US NEW policy under Obama and Clinton (but in truth it was there in more disguised form under all previous Presidents, and I mean all including Reagan)

And what is this reason that Engdahl so spectacularly misses.

The reason must be writ in large letters in the minds of all true socialists and progressive people in the world today.

The forces of Imperialism have joined (and if we ask why it is at least partly to do with the economic/political crisis at home) with the forces of Islam as represented by the Muslim Brotherhood, and it is working very well indeed, as seen in the victory some 68 per cent and counting of the Muslim Brotherhood in the pivotal Arab country…Egypt.

They keep this alliance, a grand alliance, hidden and they do have to keep it well under wraps, but it is obvious and it is there for all to see.

Note that this is quite different from say the alliance of Bush with Saudis. This is an alliance not with the Wahhabis but with the far more dangerous and extensive Muslim Brotherhood. This is essentially Obama and Clinton in action, an extension more than anything else of the alliance between Bill Clinton and Izetbegovic, which was in the final analysis an alliance between Bill Clinton and an active member of the Muslim Brotherhood, in league with the Nazis, in the Holocaust of the Jews, Romany and Serbs in the Balkans in the years from 1939 to 1945.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:27

..when he cannot answer the issues he himself raises and decides I am a member of SWP and obviously a troll because I insist on him sticking to his original story.

All your Trotskyist worship and you appear to have forgotten the cliched warning of his mentor, Marx, that religion is the opiate to be just said NO to.

But felix goes on his merry way, abusing, obfucating, dodging, smearing, twisting, diverting into ad hominems when the water gets too hot and his contradictions and inconsistencies are exposed....and all in the name of his DEIFIED idol Trotsky. Time you dropped your hasbara pipe-dreams, felix, the balance is gone west altogether.


Funny thing, felix, but I had arguments with the SWP and Eamonn McCann on the selfsame issue...quarter of a century back. As I recall they had the same adoration of the trotter as you seem to. Thats the trouble with concrete faith, it builds walls of delusion, like Israel's apartheid wall or your racist/sectarian demonisation of Arabs, Muslims, Iran and any who dont conform to your orthodox dogmas.....now that I think of it one of my ongoing problems with so many self-appointed left puritans, ever-ready to dictate for the proles.

You're so off track your face down in your own self-dug hole. Anyone with the attention span of a gnat can see who is trolling and pumping slurry on this thread.


As for Frank and his assertion that Vanunu is reponsible for the arms race escalation in the region....where do we go after that?

No doubt it was Martin Luther King Jr instigated the slave trade.


Shalom.

by lefty Sun Dec 11, 2011 15:39

Sunday Satire

its sunday so since I can't follow the absurdity of frank saying Vanunu was responsible for the arms race in the middle east and since "po-tweet" was already used by kurt vonnegut in "slaughterhouse 5" as a response to the firebombing of Dresden, I thought some humourous links might be appropriate to give people a satirical laugh on their sunday in the face of all these psychotic paranoid and dangerous religiously deluded ravings.

"Civil rights act made racism slightly less overt....."
http://www.theonion.com/video/landmark-civil-rights-act...1352/

(sorry about the advert!)

Enjoy the dripping satire of the onion for a while.

If you tire of that, try this for size for a laugh:
"Suck my veto palestine"
http://fknnewz.com/?tubepress_page=2

by Frank Adam - private citizen Sun Dec 11, 2011 22:15

Go back and re-read the text.   Vanunu's information accelerated the arms race unduly. 

Meanwhile the conversation has become ever more ignorant of what is needed to create peace in the Arab World which is essentially angry with itself for not living up to its historic self image;  and venting that anger on anybody it can - in the case of Israel which is close by and small so an easy target for bullies in the region and the intellectually feeble elsewhere.

Regardless of what you think about the imperialism of maritime Europe, the Arab and Moslem world have no bad consciences about their imperialism and are out to take over what they can so do not be surprised at another bloody century of wars of religion - or freedom from religious bigots - across the World.

Do not be surprised if Newt Gingrich for utterly US internal reasons, wins the US presidency this time next year and cuts the US 50% contribution to UNWRA as a budget economy. 

by Felix Quigley Mon Dec 12, 2011 09:49

Opus Diablos keep to the topic

 

Of far more importance in Ireland in relation to this protest against Jews showing a film is that they are going to be stopped mobilising against Israel in Israel

Their friends the brits are in no way pleased

 

But the Brits rush to the aid of the IPSC

 

"

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:45

You're rich, felix.

For most of this thread i've been trying to get you to keep to the issue you raised regarding Arab states, Hamas and Hizbollah willingness to end the conflict which Israel is waging and escalating against a civilian population incarcerated in reservations such as Gaza and the West Bank enclaves behind its apartheid wall.

Again I ask, how can the ordinary Palestinian men women and children against whom this ethnic and territorially acquisitive war is being escalated daily have a say in ending a conflict Tel Aviv wil not even slacken its pace of increasing by daily dispossession and brutal evictions?
Its like asking the Polish civilians not to be so harsh on the poor German bayonettes as steel is in short supply. A little consideration pleeeese.

As for frank and his Vanunu qualifier, I apologise; so your accusing Vanunu of accelerating the arms race is only equivalent to accusing Gandhi of accelerating British brutality in India 'unduly'.

And felix, when you've finished bashing your Eton willy over the PLO I'd like to remind you that Britannia's elder brainchild via Balfour was actually the Zionist Stern Gang and Irgun terrorist installed Tel Aviv colonial enterprise for the subjugation of the region to the transAtlantic WASP  imperial agenda of oil monopolisation as the steam age of industrialisation transited to its new  post-coal and pre-nuclear stage.

So any chance, felix, you return to the list you dragged in and respond to YOUR first issue?

Then we can address the second. One of us has to pay attention.

by Felix Quigley Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:12

And felix, when you've finished bashing your Eton willy over the PLO I'd like to remind you that Britannia's elder brainchild via Balfour was actually the Zionist Stern Gang and Irgun terrorist installed Tel Aviv colonial enterprise for the subjugation of the region to the transAtlantic WASP  imperial agenda of oil monopolisation as the steam age of industrialisation transited to its new  post-coal and pre-nuclear stage.

WOW!

YOU really are something else Opus!

Strip away the verbiage and you will see

 

1. I am bashing Hague

2. You Opus are (if words are to mean anything)  defending Hague

 

It really is child's play exposing you lot who masquerade as lefties outside the Israeli Embassy. It really is SO obvious, and that reminds me of when you went soooo easy on the CIA plant that was inside the SWP, and also therefore inside the boat flotilla

 

It is clear that in all truth you are the creation and perhaps agents of the British

 

But I do not know you or who you are, I can only go on the words you write.

 

So then answer more clearly...why is hague rushing to the support of these NGOs?

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:46

..on the words you write.'

Precisely.

Now any chance you justify the words you wrote putting the onus on innocent Palestinians to end the conflict Israel continues to escalate daily?

The comments you made are stil there to be read, despite your and frank's best efforts to drown them in ad hominems, red-herring sauce and pure voluminous noise.
Then we can continue.

Me?, I'm just sticking to the topic you raised.
Try it.
Teshuvah and
Shalom.

by JoeMc Mon Dec 12, 2011 15:54

Well done tsk tsk for exposing the fact that Frank Adam is the racist bigot aka Professor Denis MacEoin . Newcastle and Edinburgh universities should never have allowed a racist document forger who is also a writer of bog-level fantasy literature to land any sort of a job as a university professor, but engaging an Islamophobic louse such as MacEoin to teach Islamic history and culture is like a university department that is dedicated to the study of Jewish history employing the likes of David Irving as a lecturer .

Israel uses cinema to project an image of itself that isn’t a brutal and repressive one . Towards that end the apartheid state has been promoting soft-focus-on-Israel film weeks such as this one over a number of years

Two years ago WSWS reported a protest against the Toromto Film Festival’s promotion of the city of Tel Aviv . Organizers of the protest - many of them Israelis– said that the festival's decision , coming so soon after the end of the bloody Seige of Gaza in 2009 , had been in line with Israeli plans outlined by its consul general Amir Gissin who had said before the festival : “Toronto would be the test city for a promotion that could then be deployed around the world..”

Pro-Zionists like Canadian film producer Robert Lantos can’t help but show their mailed fist even when it comes to defending the apartheid state's right to contribute to the liberal arts . Lantos is the type of Zionist who can’t conceal and doesn't think that he should have to conceal his bigotry . Spouting the sort of propaganda that those who have sat through one of Professor McEoin’s lectures would doubtlessly be familiar , Lantos accused protesters such as Canadian-Jewish filmmaker Elle Flanders of being : “professional liars,” regurgitating “terrorist slogans,” acting “effectively [as] Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s local fifth column,” and having “taken a page straight out of the fascist propaganda handbook.” http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/sep2009/tiff-s16.shtml